"Washington strolled to the NFC championship, outscoring their two playoff opponents by a combined total of 48 points. Their domination was more than impressive, it was historic. The 1991 Redskins boasted the largest average margin of victory among all Super Bowl champions."
--- America's Game
Here's to hoping RG3 gets us that progress, right?
---------- Post added November-23rd-2012 at 08:10 PM ----------
Last edited by Hitman21ST; November-23rd-2012 at 07:12 PM.
OLB Coach for the 3x State Champs: 2001, 2002, 2008 Atlantic Shores Seahawks2012 Final Record: 2-9
Then,were that to be done, and be all that's done (no SB), I'd be re-evaluating.
I don't see MS as likely capable of a dynasty (your standard), looking at his history with DEN and here to date, especially with his flaws as an administrator in staff decisions. If he changes that (like getting a quality DC and turning the reins over) in the next two years and we do make the play-offs, and improve via solid new talent choice, then I'd consider extending his reign even if I'm not seeing "dynasty."
Also, re: your standard (which I get), I think "dynasty level" coaches are more rare than franchise QBs.
I guess I see dynasty as a legitimate goal to claim in terms of saying "I am setting the highest standard", but I think pragmatically, even when you have a Walsh or Belichik, you're dependent on so many other things to make something like a dynasty occur, that fortune has to play a serious role in establishing such. Of course, Uncle Louis said "fortune favors the prepared mind." So....
Last edited by Jumbo; November-23rd-2012 at 07:22 PM.
"Captain, it's a viewpoint--not one of ours! We're under attack!"
"I see it, ensign! Engage amygdala! Transfer all power from frontal lobes!
Suspend critical thinking field! Go to course heading of reflexive response 101 at full bias!
Now!'Enter' at will!"
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
RG3 year 3, we will be out of cap hell, our 1st round picks back...maybe year 4...wait, have patience.
"My first thought wasn't who can I play for now, or where can I go? It's still kind of...I'm a Redskin"
- Chris Cooley
While I disagree with the notion that Shanahan can/will not turn this team into the #1 team in football, I do agree with the premise that you have to marry the QB with the proper coach in order to maximize the production of both. Cutler WAS a blossoming top QB in the NFL, and his development was stunted with the firing of Shanahan (and subsequent trade to Chicago). In fact, the entire Denver offense was blossoming into one of the best in the NFL (with Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Ryan Clady, Tony Scheffler, Peyton Hillis, pre-injury Ryan Torain, etc.) before Shanahan's exit. McDaniels came in, wanted his guys, and proceeded to gut the roster. Denver went from having maybe the best young talent on offense in the league to a team that had one of the least talented offenses built around the powerhouse 1st round pick of Knowshon Moreno. That's the risk you run when you make wholesale coaching/FO changes (which will need to happen if Shanahan leaves).
I agree with the OP here, it's just hard to see us lose some of the types of games that we've had and still keep the same staff around. But, at the same time, it's been a long time since I've seen a two game run (under the same circumstances) that we've had the last two weeks... must win, short week... you name it... we nailed both of these games and we're rolling. Our young talent is finally producing under the proper on the field leadership... and it looks like the off the field leadership has finally found a way to motivate these guys.
I thought reverse psychology was a hail mary... but this guy has a couple of rings and seems to know what he's doing.
But to your point Jumbo... we love the roller coaster. We sit through the slow, the fast, and the peaks and valleys... right now I think everyone sees something really cool headed our way... no use in jumping off right now!
Ideally, we want to keep the parts that are working well while dumping the parts that don't. For me, that would mean keeping the offensive scheme and dumping Mike Shanahan's grip on the GM roster responsibilities and his control of the defense. If a way could be found to do all that, then we don't need Mike.
I don't want to launch into another QB vs. Coach discussion, since there's another thread with that, but I think it's an interesting comparison. Belichick, as a head coach, went through Kosar, Testaverde, and Bledsoe before finding Brady. All three of those guys had Pro-Bowls at some point in their careers, and yet never won the Superbowl on their own (Kosar and Bledsoe won as backups). I feel like Shanahan had a similar situation with Plummer and Griese, good but not great guys. The Broncos were improving under Cutler, but finally cut ties with Shanahan. Considering the Broncos started 6-0 with Orton, and then finished 2-8, it'd be very interesting to see what their '09 season would have looked like with Cutler and Shanahan one more year.
I think Shanahan understands that success begins with the QB, which is both a good and bad thing. It's a good thing because he's willing to spend to go get his A+ guy, and once he gets his A+ guy, he's going to do amazing things, but it's also bad because I think it creates a bit of tunnel vision. However, of the past ten years, the only time a journeyman QB won a SB was 2002 with Johnson (unless Brees is being counted as a journeyman). Beyond that it's been Brady (2 of his 3), the Mannings (1 and 2), Big Ben (2), Rodgers (1), and Brees (1). So his head I think is, for the most part, in the right place. And he's got his guy now, so there should be major improvement.
Anyways, I think Shanahan has shown potential progress. Potential being the key word there atm, but still very likely. We're 5-6 with a rookie QB who is miles ahead of McNabb or Grossman, and will likely continue improving. If we can beat the Browns and Eagles, two much weaker teams, we'll have at least 7 wins. If we're lucky enough to knock off either the Giants, Cowboys, or Ravens too, we're 8-8. I would argue that's substantial progress. Now, if we lay an egg and end up 5-11, it would be bad, but I think we find at least 2 more wins this season. QB position was a huge upgrade.
I think he's also helped a lot on the Oline, with the exception of RT. Our line was old and injury prone when he arrived, and this year, besides Polumbus, they've been pretty good, and everyone there is a Shanahan guy. WRs too, in 2010, he was given a corp who had Moss and Armstrong, the latter of which can't even stick with a roster now, and that was pretty much it. We now have Garcon, who's proving to be a home run threat when healthy, Morgan, who's been a solid possession guy, Robinson, a deep threat, and Hankerson, who's struggled, but I still see potential there. Even if we can't necessarily say it's a great squad, we can say for certain it's much MUCH better than what we had in 2010. There's still room for improvement on offense, but I think he took units that were Cs and Ds and has brought them up to Bs.
I keep calling the defense tricky, but I think that's an accurate description due to the injuries and cap penalty. If we didn't have injuries and suspensions, Orakpo, Carriker, Meriweather, and Jackson would all still be on the field, and I feel pretty confident that if they were still out there we'd have won at least 2-3 games we lost. Substituting Golston for Carriker gave the Rams a huge hole to run through they exploited all day. The Giants don't get that last second TD on us with the safeties. Cincy maybe doesn't beat us deep three times. Heck, even the Atlanta game, we were up 10-7 going into the 4th, and with about 12:00 left were up 17-14. Then we let them score 10 points on us and win, 17 points in the 4th quarter. Maybe it sounds crazy, but if we have those four guys, or even just Orakpo, Carriker, and Meriweather (leaving out Jackson for suspension), I think we're 7-4 or maybe even 8-3 right now. No joke. We saw how much difference one safety made in the Philly game, imagine that all season.
The second problem is the cap penalty. Our secondary would probably look completely different if not for the penalty. Maybe we'd have Carr instead of the Boys, a new safety, who knows.
The third issue is the switch from 4-3 to 3-4. We basically had to do away with most of the front seven personnel, and replace them with new guys (I'm fine with the switch, but it was an overhaul one way or another). He tossed Hanesworth(less), Carter, and a number of others, and brought in our current guys. The starters I think are good, at the very least on par with our previous bunch, but the injuries hurt a lot, and the depth can't compensate.
In fact, the only unit I'd say that's regressed is the secondary, but I don't blame Shanahan for that much. That was Rogers and Landry being themselves, and forcing us to burn bridges with them.
Shanahan, I feel, is making progress, but he's being hindered by injuries and penalties beyond his control. If we can finish this year strong, 8-8 or better, I'll be really looking forward to next year when hopefully we'll be healthier, and hopefully with some new recruits at RT, S, and CB. I think the window is just opening, and so far we're moving in the right direction to be in the picture every year.
Mike also understands that quarterbacks need a good support system to succeed. We should know that because he has said it many times.I think Shanahan understands that success begins with the QB...
Brady's support system is improving faster than RG3's. And, the three ones and a two paid for Griffin will make it more difficult to catch up.Anyways, I think Shanahan has shown potential progress.
On a quick check a few days ago, I found that Mike has added five starters through the draft since 2010. In the same time frame, Belichik added eight to his even while drafting in the lower rounds and having fewer holes to fill.
Our O-line is overrated. Mike knows how to use a mobile QB to cover up for his line's deficiencies. He did it in 2008 with Cutler. But the offense isn't our main problem going forward.I think he's also helped a lot on the Oline, with the exception of RT.
As GM or Coach, Mike does have some control of injuries and penalties.Shanahan, I feel, is making progress, but he's being hindered by injuries and penalties beyond his control.
Some injuries happen when stronger players with better leverage hurt weaker opponents. More injuries occur when you rely too much on vet free agents with injury histories. Most penalties occur because an inferior player is trying to cheat to get an edge on a superior opponent. Some occur with multiple formations making the play more complex or when the play hasn't been practiced enough.
Mike knew, or should have known, the risk he was taking.The second problem is the cap penalty.
Last edited by Oldfan; November-24th-2012 at 04:34 AM.
I agree. Meriweather's presence seemed to make a huge difference out there. I still prefer the 43, but our defense might be stout enough to win a championship with some major tweaking in the secondary and getting Carriker and Rak back into the fold.Maybe it sounds crazy, but if we have those four guys, or even just Orakpo, Carriker, and Meriweather (leaving out Jackson for suspension), I think we're 7-4 or maybe even 8-3 right now. No joke. We saw how much difference one safety made in the Philly game, imagine that all season.
Last edited by Chump Bailey; November-24th-2012 at 05:24 AM.
I want the peace of God in my life.
To say these words is nothing.
But to mean these words is everything.
Nobody can mean these words and not be healed.
He'll build the support system, but he wants to know someone will actually be able to handle the thing.
So I'd hardly characterize him as drafting in the lower rounds. In fact, if all he's added are 8 starters in three years, I'd say he's actually underperforming, considering he's had a whopping 10 picks in the first 2 rounds since 2010, and another four 3rd rounders. As for the later rounds, only three of those guys are starters, Hernandez, Dennard, and Mesko, though some are performing admirably as backups (Cannon in for Vollmer).
Belichick's success comes from having a ton of picks when the talent is still very good. The last year he didn't have more than three picks in the first 3 rounds was way back in 2007. Since '08, he's had five 1sts (normal), ELEVEN 2nds (holy crap that's a lot), and eight 3rds.
Meanwhile, in the ruins of Vinny land, Shanahan didn't even have a 3rd rounder in 2010 when he walked in the door. He did make the McNabb trade, but from Shanahan's perspective, it looked like he was getting a QB with a few years left in him. Clearly he was wrong, and that took away some picks. We traded back within the year in 2011, and added some solid depth guys. As far as starters deep in the draft, 4th rounders and later usually take time to develop, but Riley, A. Robinson, K. Robinson, A. Morris, and R. Helu have all shown solid flashes of talent despite being 4th round or later guys. A couple others are there too, and might yet work out (Hurt, Compton, Crawford, Minnifield, etc.).
So yeah, while Shanahan's lack of early picks is somewhat of his own making, the simple fact is since 2010 the Pats have had 14 picks in the first 3 rounds, while we've had 6 (and even if we hadn't made ill advised trades we'd probably still have only had 8, thanks to the 2009 supplemental pick and the RGIII trade). It's thus hardly a surprise that they have a faster growing support system. But as I think a lot of people said in the other thread, that doesn't necessarily mean Shanahan is doing badly either. 6 starters since 2010 with the potential for a few more to develop with a lot of cheap depth from '11 and '12 isn't terrible.
And if Shanahan hadn't, guess what, we'd be eating huge chunks of Hanesworth's and even Hall's contract NOW. So basically, Mike, in hindsight, was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with the cap, a situation in no way of his own making. He made the choice that, at the time, was within the rules and gave us the ability to function effectively down the road, but was then punished for it. Again, without that penalty, Shanahan probably has a new RT, and a completely different secondary.
Do not blame him for the penalty, that's a step too far.
And all the things I talked about are why I still trust Shanahan. Look at the Texans, it took them 6 years to have a winning team when they started from scratch. Shanahan came in here with an old roster that had maybe a dozen useful players on it (not all of them starters), a couple players with massive contracts that had to be dealt with, and no QB to lead the team. In many ways he was worse off than the Texans' coaches. Despite ALL of the madness, the Hanesworth, the having to cut several rosters worth of guys just to find some useful players, and this year, the injuries, he's still got us at 5-6, with a very good shot at 7-9 or better. You said keep him for RGIII's sake, I say keep him because he's making progress. Slow, rough progress, but progress nonetheless.
As for the O-line, I'm still very much of the opinion that it's RT and RBs (and TEs to a lesser extent), who drag us down more than anything. We could certainly upgrade LG and RG, but they've done alright thus far. That's why the Brown and Hightower injuries (and Davis, who was finally learning to block) are so major. And Williams' contract is actually not too terrible this and next year. It's in a couple years that it balloons, when we'll have our money back. And while I agree that I wish we could have found our LT later too, I love Williams' play this year, and I'm not sure who else we'd have drafted (Okung isn't nearly as good as Williams) so I'll opt for the bird in the hand in this case
Last edited by DogofWar1; November-24th-2012 at 11:36 AM.
2.) The tackle class in 2011 was far, far worse than the class was in 2010. Tyron Smith has been okay-ish playing left tackle. Solder wasn't really a fit. Carimi is an embarassment on the Bears right now, Carpenter moved to guard, and Derek Sherrod can't stay healthy, and even when he could he couldn't start over Marshall Newhouse.
3.) Trent's not a "solid" left tackle. He's a top 5 tackle in the league. That's not homerism. Trent is left on an island constantly and flat out dominates the best past rushers week after week. You rarely see pressure come from his side, and he just mauls people in the run game. I think history has shown that Trent was absolutely the right pick. His development has been outstanding to watch, comparing where he was as a rookie to what he is now.
There's no doubt in my mind that the Shanahan boys can make RG3 the best QB he can be, it's everything else Papa Shanahan brings to the table (or doesn't) that scares me. The full control element will hold this franchise back, IMO. RG3 will continue to blow our socks off, but there's only so much even he can do without the proper front office setup.
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