The Almighty Quarterback Bandwagon Runs Out of Control

[deejaydana]

I think it's also evidence that a great QB isn't this necessary item everyone's talked about.

Remember when the Cowboys could run the ball pretty well? They actually made the playoffs a couple times. Now, they have no running game and the team is on the verge of collapse.

All kidding aside, it's not just Romo.

Hmmmm. Yeah, but I think there are many places you can lay blame regards where the Cowboys are failing. They aren't coached well, they lack all kinds of discipline. I actually think Romo is an above average QB but he is only a part of the problem with that team. A true franchise QB really can lift everyone, case in point would be us, or the Colts, this year.

[Mahons21]

Our offense is gimmicky because we don't fully trust RGIII to be a pure, standard, Andrew Luck, yet. That's being built each game. Read this, throw based on that read. VERY defined reads. Similar to college, but expanding every week. It's this area that makes the team better if he improves here, even if his numbers suffer for it.

I completely disagree. Our offense is gimmicky because we don't have a lot of talent, we rely on confusion and mis-direction to generate production. This is not because RG3 can't go through his reads in my opinion. Rather it is due to his surroundings. If our o-line was asked to block for a drop back passing game like a Brees/Manning they'd resemble the Saints o-line v 49ers, though it would only take an average defense not the 49ers. In other words, Griffin would be dealing with a crumbling pocket throwing into 8 defenders. That's not a situation QB will succeed in, no point in throwing your young QB into it. This doesn't even begin to touch our receiving corps, who up until a couple weeks ago couldn't catch a cold.

[deejaydana]

The QB Rating doesn't measure very much at all. It's a horrible measuring stick.

Only three stats really interest me with QBs: Completion percentage, YPA, and TD:Int Ratio...with the last one not mattering really that much. Smith is actually pretty high in all those categories this year so I'm slightly confused as to what Harbaugh is doing. I don't trust Smith long-term, but I trust him more against the Falcons in January.

Good teams don't often switch QBs in the latter half of a season and live to tell the tale.

I think Smith's stats are really deceptive though because Harbaugh is smart enough to play to his strengths and he keeps Smith on a short lease. It literally is a case of the coach saying in so many words: "Don't **** this up for us QB," so it's hardly a ringing endorsement to begin with and hence the Kaepernick switcheroo. That defense of theirs can mask what is, in Smith, an average QB. I see him in KC or some other QB starved team next year.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Hmmmm. Yeah, but I think there are many places you can lay blame regards where the Cowboys are failing. They aren't coached well, they lack all kinds of discipline. I actually think Romo is an above average QB but he is only a part of the problem with that team. A true franchise QB really can lift everyone, case in point would be us, or the Colts, this year.

I think Romo is actually pretty good and imagine that the Cowboys would be historically bad if they had, like, the Cardinals' QB situation. Which I think they will have once Romo is finally finished because Jerry Jones is an old, senile man.

---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 05:00 PM ----------

I think Smith's stats are really deceptive though because Harbaugh is smart enough to play to his strengths and he keeps Smith on a short lease. It literally is a case of the coach saying in so many words: "Don't **** this up for us QB," so it's hardly a ringing endorsement to begin with and hence the Kaepernick switcheroo. That defense of theirs can mask what is, in Smith, an average QB. I see him in KC or some other QB starved team next year.

Oh, I don't think Smith is good...but he has been good this year. That happens sometimes. I think he is overdue to fall back to earth - which obviously Harbaugh thinks too. I think I would just wait to make the switch until the off-season, but I'm not a Harbaugh (thank God).

I also don't think San Francisco can win the Super Bowl with either QB they have.

[deejaydana]

Oh, I don't think Smith is good...but he has been good this year. That happens sometimes. I think he is overdue to fall back to earth - which obviously Harbaugh thinks to. I think I would just wait to make the switch until the off-season, but I'm not a Harbaugh (thank God).

I think the fact that they looked (in the Chicago game anyway) markedly better with the backup QB was all they needed to let Smith ride the pine. The fact that Kaepernick, who might also be only an average QB as well, provides much more mobility, just makes an already top tier team, that much harder to beat. He'll make mistakes for sure, but I don't see Smith ever playing a leading role in SF again unless they do some non-standard 1,2 QB approach that really doesn't exist in the modern game. Ok, rambling done on my part.

[UK SKINS FAN '74]

9.3% -- value of the average QB position

Fair Enough.

RG3 probably comes in around 15% given the % of rushes he has in this scheme so far.

Spread the other 85% across the rest of the sample and he calculates at being at least 5 times more important than anyone else within that 100%.

[jly0784]

isnt oldfan the same clown who claims cutler is an elite qb??? dont give me crap about how bad campbell was against san fran, they would have done that against anyone that ngiht, they were playing inspired ball

[Oldfan]

OF...I don't believe I used any circular reasoning at all.

No, you didn't. I didn't mean to imply that you had.

An elite QB is someone who's play over time clearly lifts everyone around him.

What you see clearly isn't evident to me. As I said, I see teamwork.

Peyton Manning should probably be on his way to consecutive MVP awards.

As the most important position, the QB of a winner will win MVPs by default unless a teammate has a dominant performance. The MVP is a team award, not a QB award.

The Colts were contenders. All the time. Manning goes out and they are the worst team in football. Immediately.

If he stayed, Brady faced new coaches, new scheme, new supporting talent. In Denver, he has the same scheme he has run for a decade with far more talent. Brady was either very lucky to get outta Dodge or he plans well.

Belichick is about to be fired. Bledsoe goes out, Brady comes in and that team is great for a decade.

You are confusing cause with coincidence. Kraft never considered firing Belichik and Brady's performance wasn't that much better than Bledsoe's in the beginning. Belichik is constantly ahead of the curve on both offense and defense.

Brees and Brady and Manning play differently than Stafford, though Stafford may have 5000 yards in a year. The ball comes out early. On time. There's efficiency to how they play and how their team performs. They show up and everything is better.

I can't see that. I think you are seeing things I don't because you can't see anything physical he can do with his arm or his legs to account for the difference in performance. What you see is Brady. What I see is Brady performing as an important player on the Patriots team.

Brees, this year, shows the value of coaching as well. That team started to stabilize when Vitt came back. Clearly coaching is still very important in the NFL. More than other sports. But, the NFL is now something no other league is either. It's a ONE PLAYER MUST BE great and your team is pretty good at least. Basketball you need two great ones in five. And there are more great ones. Baseball needs more. When Brad Johnson had a career year, we were very competitive. When he fell back, we did too. Our spikes in positive performance have all been tied to excellent QB play for some stretch. Not that Todd Collins was elite, but he played near that level for several wonderful weeks.

Baseball is more of an individual spot played in a team concept. Basketball has only five positions to grade. Football is the consummate team sport with a whole bunch of players and coaches. Grading individuals is tough.

Football there has never been a situation where a team has a great QB where that team hasn't been very competitive for the duration of that QB's great play. No other position has the influence of the rare breed QB. We are in an era of pretty good QB play, or at least elevated numbers. That does not mean they are all elite. There are three to five who qualify there. Those players may have a couple of bad games, but generally so impact each play of the game, whether they are in or not, the entire season is different with them.

Archie Manning was the best athlete-QB in the game in his day. I have him graded as better than Peyton and Eli by a wide margin. He played for the pathetic Saints though. His career W/L record was something like 35 - 100. In today's NFL game with parity, Archie might have been enough difference to make his team a winner. It's hard to say.

I judge NFL QBs as a scout might -- but only on their physical skill set. My position is that, while my method is incomplete, it's the only intelligent way to go about it. Here's a link to a recent thread which explains how I go about it and why if you're interested.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...hest-QBTG-ever

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Archie Manning was the best athlete-QB in the game in his day. I have him graded as better than Peyton and Eli by a wide margin. He played for the pathetic Saints though. His career W/L record was something like 35 - 100. In today's NFL game with parity, Archie might have been enough difference to make his team a winner. It's hard to say.

I judge NFL QBs as a scout might only on their physical skill set. My position is that, while my method is incomplete, it's the only intelligent way to go about it. Here's a like to a recent thread which explains how I go about it and why if you're interested.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...hest-QBTG-ever

I would pay money to see the filing cabinet where you seem to have a grade for every QB since the mid-60s.

[deejaydana]

isnt oldfan the same clown who claims cutler is an elite qb??? dont give me crap about how bad campbell was against san fran, they would have done that against anyone that ngiht, they were playing inspired ball

Cutler's biggest short coming is his attitude, which has never been good really. His O-line is not very good either BUT I will say he very definitely is borderline elite. I also don't think a poster like Oldfan, with all the work he puts in, should be called a clown. At least the guy is adding some value to the board and he's clearly done some analysis and thought his information out. We're all entitled to our opinions here amigo.

[skinnyskins]

I judge NFL QBs as a scout might only on their physical skill set. My position is that, while my method is incomplete, it's the only intelligent way to go about it. Here's a link to a recent thread which explains how I go about it and why if you're interested.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...hest-QBTG-ever

A scout would never judge a QB solely on physical skill. The mental aspect of a QB is, I would argue, the most important aspect that separates a high caliber NFL QB from the rest. You even admit your method is incomplete. And, it is not intelligent to throw out very important aspects of model that grades QB's even if it is difficult to judge. Every player that enters the NFL is physically talented. The ones that have their head right and can make good decisions are the ones that are successful.

[Oldfan]

....He's still actually quite slow to deliver, especially on deep passes. He's not totally great, yet, at anticipating routes and throws. He seems to be getting better and so doing, with his skills, will make the offense more efficient, if a tad less explosive. ...

I agree. He can improve on those areas. However, I expect defenses to game plan as they do for Romo. Keep him in the pocket.

Unlike Romo, I think Robert will do well throwing from the pocket, but not AS WELL as he does on the move --especially with that smaller O-line which can't pass protect as well as they run block.

[jly0784]

Cutler's biggest short coming is his attitude, which has never been good really. His O-line is not very good either BUT I will say he very definitely is borderline elite. I also don't think a poster like Oldfan, with all the work he puts in, should be called a clown. At least the guy is adding some value to the board and he's clearly done some analysis and thought his information out. We're all entitled to our opinions here amigo.

i say clown cause he doesnt even acknowledge or consider anyone elses point of view, its either his way or your dead wrong, no ifs ands or buts.... and as far as cutler being elite... 130 tds - 97 ints, and hes only made the playoffs once.... hes above average at best, cant even compare him to either manning, brady, brees, or rodgers, hell even big ben.... those guys are leaders, and have proven to be elite

[Oldfan]

A scout would never judge a QB solely on physical skill. The mental aspect of a QB is, I would argue, the most important aspect that separates a high caliber NFL QB from the rest. You even admit your method is incomplete. And, it is not intelligent to throw out very important aspects of model that grades QB's even if it is difficult to judge. Every player that enters the NFL is physically talented. The ones that have their head right and can make good decisions are the ones that are successful.

You can't see the mental aspects of a QB. It's foolish to try to grade them. (exception: ordinary intelligence can be measured)

If you have a way to do it from a fan's perspective, let me know. I'd be happy to add the mental game if the grading makes sense.

---------- Post added November-27th-2012 at 04:42 PM ----------

I would pay money to see the filing cabinet where you seem to have a grade for every QB since the mid-60s.

The filing cabinet is a brain. When I use the word "grade," I'm using it figuratively. I remember skill sets of notable QBs going way back.

[skinnyskins]

You can't see the mental aspects of a QB. It's foolish to try to grade them. (exception: ordinary intelligence can be measured)

If you have a way to do it from a fan's perspective, let me know. I'd be happy to add the mental game if the grading makes sense.[COLOR="Gold"]

Although it is not a perfect indicator of intelligence, some of these factors could be considered when making a 'grade'. These are fairly easy to see and focus on the decision making of a QB. 1) If a QB has a history of making mental errors (i.e. throwing into triple coverage, missing open receivers, bad penalties) 2) if they have poor game management (i.e. delay of game penalties, poor clock management) 3) If they effectively audible into productive plays, Im sure there are more as well but these can be seen and graded as effectively as judging mechanics.