Should the Skins look for a Dual-Threat backup QB?

[dreamshatterer]

I'm a fan of Joe Web. I see similarities. Especially in the run option plays. Remeber how he torched our D a couple of years ago?

[Wyvern]

I really don't see this team looking for someone whose strengths are more about handling the option runs than on providing disciplined accurate pocket passing. Frankly, I see Shanahan moving away from the option-reads as the team gets more experienced with Kyle's staple zone-stretch WCO offense. They want to keep Griffin around.

I'll grant that those rules protecting QBs who haven't yet 'declared' themselves as a runner, truly have increased the value of an elusive scrambling QB. But any coach who deliberately builds in a heavy mix of plays requiring his QB to be a runner, is probably shortening the 'shelf life' for that player. And if a QB can run AND pass well -- it's usually safer to have him pass and use his legs for 'emergency reasons.'

Now we'd all like to have the Skins backup QB possess the talent mix and versatility of an Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees -- but the fact is that most QBs usually don't have that combination at the NFL level. Candidly there aren't that many "running" QBs that really make it in the NFL, (okay, there's Randall Cunningham, early years of Vick, and perhaps Tebow) -- and generally NFL playbooks rely on QBs who are stronger with quick, disciplined, accurate passing from the pocket (like Cutler, Brady, etc.)

I think the Shanahans are happy with Cousins as backup to Griffin. He's mobile enough, has a decent short-medium passing game, is an ardent student, has team-captain chararcter, a cheap contract, and almost a full season of exposure to the Shanahan offense. He's not going to scare anyone with his running, but his passing from the pocket makes him a good fit for Kyles stock zone-stretch WCO offense. Barring Cousins performing poorly in the 2013 pre-season, he's probably going to remain Griffin's backup, and Rex will not get another contract.

Now if Shanahan did want to bring in someone mobile to compete with Cousins, someone made an interesting suggestion ... Joshua Johnson (NFL veteran and fifth round pick in 2008 by Tampa). Johnson seemed like a good scrambling WCO style QB while in college. He's likely a better runner than Cousins, but from what I saw of his NFL games, his passing accuracy wasn't that greaat.

[NOTE: The Skins could get Johnson on the cheap, because his fortunes have slid. After Tampa let him go free agent, he signed a 2-year contract with the 49'ers but was cut before the 2012 regualr season; he's now down to playing for the UFL franchise in Sacramento, and the UFL franchise has abruptly stopped playing games for the rest of the season. However, I'd also note Johnson's UFL stats aren't all that that great, and even worse -- Joshua was out for several games with a knee injury.]

[Reaper 21]

The answer IMO is no, no dual threats out there can Immitate him, we sound very spoiled in here. Anyway it would be better to have a different style to close games, one they are not prepared for.

[DiscoBob]

The answer IMO is no, no dual threats out there can Immitate him, we sound very spoiled in here. Anyway it would be better to have a different style to close games, one they are not prepared for.

I can see the advantage of changing up style if Griffin is known to be out and the Shanahan's can plan with the new QB in mind. BUT, if Griffin goes down in the middle of a game, I would rather have a backup that can run the plan that they had in place all week....I realize that they won't do it as well as Griffin, but it doesn't have to be as effective to still work....

[Die Hard]

The thought of Denard Robinson in our backfield would be sick. I`d love to see that :-)

[RandyHolt]

Let's clone RG3!!!!1!!!1

[All In]

Imagine if we could have had Russell Wilson as the backup.

[darrelgreenie]

If our offense would be as effective without the read-option plays then why are we using them?

Our ability to run the ball is based on having the QB as a run threat that defenses have to account for in the running game.

Our offense is predicated on the ability to run the ball. We run the ball 52% of the time (IIRC that is the best in the NFL or at the very least on of the best) and we're the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. Our running success is only possible because our QB has to be accounted for as a runner.

According to Greg Cosell our passing offense is one of the most run/play action focused passing offenses in the league. If our ability to run the ball is reduced it stands to reason that our ability to pass the ball and be explosive in the play-action passing game will be reduced.

We don't know what Kirk Cousins will become. But, we know that he's not enough a capable enough runner to run the offense we're currently using.

Going forward it makes perfect sense to have a QB on the roster that is capable runner.

[moondog]

If our offense would be as effective without the read-option plays then why are we using them?

Our ability to run the ball is based on having the QB as a run threat that defenses have to account for in the running game.

Our offense is predicated on the ability to run the ball. We run the ball 52% of the time (IIRC that is the best in the NFL or at the very least on of the best) and we're the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. Our running success is only possible because our QB has to be accounted for as a runner.

According to Greg Cosell our passing offense is one of the most run/play action focused passing offenses in the league. If our ability to run the ball is reduced it stands to reason that our ability to pass the ball and be explosive in the play-action passing game will be reduced.

We don't know what Kirk Cousins will become. But, we know that he's not enough a capable enough runner to run the offense we're currently using.

Going forward it makes perfect sense to have a QB on the roster that is capable runner.

Ever think that we are so successful as a running offense because teams have to respect the fact that RG3 is also a very good passing quarterback and they have to respect the pass? If there is a single guy out there that is a good running quarterback and actually demands respect AS A PASSER, he is either starting for another team or does not exist.

I'll take the hit our offense will receive from not having a quarterback that is a running threat over a quarterback that can run but is no threat to pass.

If a defense does not have to respect the passing game, it does not matter how many guys in the backfield are capable runners. Teams will stack the box and the offense will suck. Whatever miracle happened last year for Denver and Tim Tebow is not a situation that is likely to ever take place again.

A quarterback that is not a huge running threat but can pass the ball effectively is a better option because you can still run the ball with a very talented back in Morris. If you have a guy that can run at QB but can't throw, no matter what scheme we run it will be useless and completely nullifies any receiving threats we have like Garcon or Robinson.

Want to clarify a single guy out there right now that is even a realistic option that arguably would be a better backup than Cousins and is of the "running" variety? Michael Vick may actually be available but there is a lot of stupid **** I would rather do than see him don a Redskins uniform. And that has nothing to do with his past, it's simply from a chemistry standpoint and the type of guys Shanahan has brought in here and I don't think he fits that mold. You got anyone else on your short list?

---------- Post added December-2nd-2012 at 07:38 PM ----------

The thought of Denard Robinson in our backfield would be sick. I`d love to see that :-)

You realize Robinson will likely never even make it as a backup in this league? You think he has any more talent than those players similar that came before him? Vince Young? Pat White? Robinson would be a returner on this team and that's the only value he would have and we already have a Robinson on our team that I would love to see in that role.

[darrelgreenie]

Ever think that we are so successful as a running offense because teams have to respect the fact that RG3 is also a very good passing quarterback and they have to respect the pass? If there is a single guy out there that is a good running quarterback and actually demands respect AS A PASSER, he is either starting for another team or does not exist.

To answer your question: No.
I'm not talking in abstract about 'demanding respect as a passer' what ever that means.
I'm talking about the actual Xs and Os effect that happens to a defense when they have to account for the QB as a runner in the running game. Having a QB that is a runner removes the extra man advantage the defense typically has over most teams where the QB is not accounted for in the run game. What I'm describing isn't my opinion nor is it some abstract concept. Its basic football Xs and Os.

I'll take the hit our offense will receive from not having a quarterback that is a running threat over a quarterback that can run but is no threat to pass.

Okay, but understand that our offense is predicated on ability to run the ball. You remove that element you effectively reduce the effectiveness of the entire offense including Morris and the play-action passing game.

If a defense does not have to respect the passing game, it does not matter how many guys in the backfield are capable runners. Teams will stack the box and the offense will suck. Whatever miracle happened last year for Denver and Tim Tebow is not a situation that is likely to ever take place again.

Actually, the situation in Denver is the exact counter argument to your point. Tebow is a QB that cannot pass. He is pretty much as bad as passer as your gonna find at the QB position. Yet, even without basic NFL skills as a passer Denver became the #1 rushing offense in the league. (kinda blows a huge hole in your notion that the running game is effective because of passing threat). And further the fact that Tebow (who cannot pass) led that team to a play victory speaks to effectiveness of the actual Xs and Os for having a QB that is a run threat.

I think most NFL QB are better passers then Tebow. It only makes sense that in addition to Cousins there should be a QB on the roster that is a decent passer that also has the ability to be an effective runner.

Want to clarify a single guy out there right now that is even a realistic option that arguably would be a better backup than Cousins and is of the "running" variety?

First, you need to read what I wrote in my post. I'm not predicting who's gonna be the 'better back-up' I have no idea, just like you have no idea whether Cousin's is even a good back-up at this point. The sample size is too small. What we do know is that Cousin's is incapable of running our current offense.

[moondog]

To answer your question: No.
I'm not talking in abstract about 'demanding respect as a passer' what ever that means.
I'm talking about the actual Xs and Os effect that happens to a defense when they have to account for the QB as a runner in the running game. Having a QB that is a runner removes the extra man advantage the defense typically has over most teams where the QB is not accounted for in the run game. What I'm describing isn't my opinion nor is it some abstract concept. Its basic football Xs and Os.

Whatever that means? It means exactly what you mean when you say a defense has to change the way they play because the QB is a threat to run. If the QB is a threat to pass, the defense plays it differently than if they are not concerned about the pass. So that changes the X's and O's in the exact same way.

Okay, but understand that our offense is predicated on ability to run the ball. You remove that element you effectively reduce the effectiveness of the entire offense including Morris and the play-action passing game.

So you're saying that without RG3 we would have no running game, our O-line would be incapable of opening up holes for Morris, and Morris would be incapable of churning out yards? Look, I get what you're saying. I completely agree that RG3 as a threat opens up a lot for our offense, including relieving some pressure from Morris. But Shanahan has spent his whole career with QB's that while they have been "mobile" were nothing like RG3 and yet he has had incredible success in the running game. Again, not having a mobile QB would affect our offense, but to suggest we would instantly lose our running game success and therefore the play-action game is to be blind to what Shanahan has done his entire NFL career as well as to discredit Morris and our run blocking.

Actually, the situation in Denver is the exact counter argument to your point. Tebow is a QB that cannot pass. He is pretty much as bad as passer as your gonna find at the QB position. Yet, even without basic NFL skills as a passer Denver became the #1 rushing offense in the league. (kinda blows a huge hole in your notion that the running game is effective because of passing threat). And further the fact that Tebow (who cannot pass) led that team to a play victory speaks to effectiveness of the actual Xs and Os for having a QB that is a run threat.

Actually, it's not. What Tebow accomplished was so awesome that it got him traded, he could not even beat out Sanchez for a job, and now he will still be the backup behind either Sanchez or the new guy. The Vikings, the Bills and the Chiefs are 3, 4 and 5 in the league right now in rushing and are having very little success. There are three perfect examples RIGHT NOW of teams that are very successful at running the ball but are **** teams because they are zero threat to hurt defenses through the air. If the Denver offense was so effective and a blueprint for success (more important that a QB can run the ball then throw it), please explain why Elway never committed to Tebow and jettisoned him the second he had the shot. And please don't answer it as simply as saying Manning because Elway was replacing Tebow no matter what.

I think most NFL QB are better passers then Tebow. It only makes sense that in addition to Cousins there should be a QB on the roster that is a decent passer that also has the ability to be an effective runner.

There are a lot of pages in our playbook man. A LOT more than simply read-option plays which are about the only RG3-specific plays we have. A very small part of our playbook is lost by not having a sprinter at QB.

First, you need to read what I wrote in my post. I'm not predicting who's gonna be the 'better back-up' I have no idea, just like you have no idea whether Cousin's is even a good back-up at this point. The sample size is too small. What we do know is that Cousin's is incapable of running our current offense.

First, I read your entire post. More than once. I would never respond to a post I hadn't read, much less quote it. You are right that I have little idea how successful Cousins can be. I'm simply saying that Cousins is a very smart, successful player who is known to be a leader and work his ass off. He will never be half as good as RG3. BUT, think a little more logically. Shanahan has only added RG3 specific plays to the core concept and playbook he's used his whole career. He has made his success by and large with QB's who can move but are not runners. You're telling me that Shanahan would not continue to have success in the run game when he has a talented/proven RB on our roster and a good run-blocking line? That's his bread and butter man.

A backup is a backup for a reason. Most teams are not going to have a lot of success with a backup at QB. Period. But to say that Shanahan would not be able to have success in the run game to set up his play action if he's lacking a running quarterback is to simply ignore everything he's always done. A running game is essential to his success and he'll have that with Morris. But you have to have a QB that can complete a pass and read the field to have success in the play action game. Cousins was great in college and showed a lot of positive ability and potential in preseason and did not play poorly in limited time against the Falcons. He has very good pocket awareness and moves around in the pocket nicely. He is not incapable of making plays on his feet. I have MUCH more faith in Shanahan being successful with a guy like that then someone in the mold of a Vince Young, which is what this thread seems to be about.

Again a backup is a backup. We're not going to have a second RG3 obviously. So basically the argument is would you rather have a guy like Cousins, or someone in the mold of Vince Young. Am I wrong? I would much rather have a guy like Cousins because I'd rather lack the QB runs than lack any semblance of a passing attack.

[HeluCopter29]

I want to shout this from the rooftops...NO TEAM IS GIVING A 3rd/4th for COUSINS!!!

Starting QB's are a hot commodity in this league. We drafted Cousins so he could became our Kevin Kolb in a couple years.

The Cardinals needed a guy who they thought could start and gave a top CB and a 2nd for him.

That was Kevin Kolb.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Starting QB's are a hot commodity in this league. We drafted Cousins so he could became our Kevin Kolb in a couple years.

The Cardinals needed a guy who they thought could start and gave a top CB and a 2nd for him.

That was Kevin Kolb.

Maybe if he (God forbid) plays more, but his one game wasn't good

Kolb had games with the Iggles where he looked pretty good

[maskedsuperstar]

Rex Grossman was able to move the offense(prior to turning it over). I believe Cousins can as well. I believe the Shanny's believe this as well, or he wouldnt be here. No QB is going to be able to step in and do all the things that Griff does. That's why Griff was such a hot commodity. If you have a QB that can do the things Griff can do, he's getting drafted day 1. Kyle's offense is great at getting people open, if you have somebody that can get the ball to them, the offense will be fine. Save the resources for an area of greater need.

Hard time reading, huh? I said draft a QB that is mobile and can pass. Colin Klein or Nick Florence!

[CoolHandLuke]

If our offense would be as effective without the read-option plays then why are we using them?

Our ability to run the ball is based on having the QB as a run threat that defenses have to account for in the running game.

Our offense is predicated on the ability to run the ball. We run the ball 52% of the time (IIRC that is the best in the NFL or at the very least on of the best) and we're the #1 rushing offense in the NFL. Our running success is only possible because our QB has to be accounted for as a runner.

According to Greg Cosell our passing offense is one of the most run/play action focused passing offenses in the league. If our ability to run the ball is reduced it stands to reason that our ability to pass the ball and be explosive in the play-action passing game will be reduced.

We don't know what Kirk Cousins will become. But, we know that he's not enough a capable enough runner to run the offense we're currently using.

Going forward it makes perfect sense to have a QB on the roster that is capable runner.

What do you think about Nick Florence? I like Cousins mainly as a draft commodity, however I think he'll be fine as a backup/game manager for the time being. I also think Florence would turn us into a Montana/Young situation, which is a good thing if you ask me. Major draft bait + Guaranteed depth at QB which is always kosher in my opinion!

Hard time reading, huh? I said draft a QB that is mobile and can pass. Colin Klein or Nick Florence

Yes!