Kobe joins the 30,000 point club: so where does he rank all-time now?

[Sticksboi05]

I hear you. Although I think you're underestimating Moses. The guy was one of the true greats.

I can see ranking Duncan over Karl because he's a better pure player no doubt. But Karl did it for 19 years! That's every bit as astonishing as Kareem's longevity and Kobe's longevity will end up being. He's third all time in NBA/ABA history in career win shares. He wasn't some guard that got by on his wiles long after his athleticism was gone (Stockton). He was a big man that ran the floor and rebounded in an era with a lot of other great bigs who were allowed to beat the crap out of each other every night. That must have been brutal.

He may not have spectacular or signature moments throughout his career like Duncan. But take my scenario of your a GM and you get to draft a team from scratch choosing from the All Time list in NBA history. Do you take Malone top ten? Got to be at least top 12 right? He gives you a window damn near two decades long. I don't typically value longevity above things like efficiency and all around play but damn, longevity like that is special and definitely worth something.

If I want to win rings, I'll take Tim Duncan. Man, what a defender in his prime. Karl is an all-time great but the greatest PF ever is Tim. you are right though about Malone being unfortunate in when he went to the Finals. Though in 97-98 MJ wasn't quite invincible as he wasn't close to the defender he was in the late 80s/early 90s. But that's okay when you have Rodman, Pippen and Ron Harper.

[authentic]

Points don't tell the whole story, at the end of the day the question in my mind is, which guy do you want on your team? This question goes to fans and players alike. Most fans I think would love him because he would bring a championship hope for them, I just don't know if I'd want to be on the same team as him, especially the way management lets him have say over personel.

The thing that separates MJ from Kobe by a WIDE margin, IMO.. Is that MJ won his titles without a dominant big man. Actually all of his Centers were below average - average (at best). Kobe could not, nor did he win a title without, either a dominant big man (Shaq), or dominant front court play (Bynum/Gasol). Otherwise his teams were exited from the playoffs in historic fashion. Another thing about Kobe.. Save for the 2009 playoffs, his playoff performances actually regress from the regular season. Jordan was the complete opposite. Man i can go on and on about this.

[pjfootballer]

I don't know, FIFTH?

[stevemcqueen1]

If Jordan didn't retire the first time, does Hakeem ever get his rings? Honestly, as transcendent as he was in 93 & 94, I don't think he would. I don't think Jordan loses a finals at that point in his career.

So if Hakeem doesn't win his rings, where does he rank all time? Probably a lot lower. I think those big men of his era end up getting way underrated because the Celtics and Lakers and Pistons were so loaded nobody could beat them and then they couldn't beat Jordan when he finally got a team around him capable of being a vehicle to his greatness. But I bet if you take Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, and Hakeem out of that era and put them in the 70's, 2000's, or 2010's or give them better teams in the 80's they would have ripped through the league. Those guys were extraordinary players that excelled in all aspects of their positions. Their skill level was just so superior compared to anything we've seen from everyone but Duncan and KG since.

Elton Brand never would have been one of the best bigs in the league with Barkley, Ewing, Malone, or Robinson around, that's for damn sure. And I doubt Shaq gets close to four rings if those guys had come into the league at the same time as him.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:10 PM ----------

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO.. Actually i rate Magic @ #2 on the greatest ever list behind Jordan.

I think Kareem is. He accomplished a lot for the Bucks but he's really remembered as a Laker. I think he was with the Lakers long enough and did enough for them while there for LA to claim him. There is no doubt Kareem was better than Kobe and Magic.

I think Kareem is #2 behind Jordan. If you look at his whole basketball career including his time at UCLA, I think he's arguably the greatest basketball player in American history, just a bit ahead of Jordan.

But just off of NBA history, which is all anyone usually cares about, I'd say he's #2.

[Sticksboi05]

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO.. Actually i rate Magic @ #2 on the greatest ever list behind Jordan.

I have Magic below Larry. When both were healthy, Larry looked like he would've been the superior player. Unfortunately, Bird broke his back, Reggie Lewis/Len Bias died and the Celtics championship window slammed shut. So because he has 3 rings, he is put behnd Magic who has five.

But a SF giving you 28/10/6 a game while being lethally clutch and good in a team defensive system is pretty much impossible to go against.

[stevemcqueen1]

If I want to win rings, I'll take Tim Duncan. Man, what a defender in his prime. Karl is an all-time great but the greatest PF ever is Tim. you are right though about Malone being unfortunate in when he went to the Finals. Though in 97-98 MJ wasn't quite invincible as he wasn't close to the defender he was in the late 80s/early 90s. But that's okay when you have Rodman, Pippen and Ron Harper.

Yeah I'd take Duncan too. I think it was during the Wizards game they mentioned Duncan made a promise to his dying mother that he would get a college degree and that was the reason he stayed all four years at Wake. Imagine if that never happens and Duncan came out to the NBA as soon as possible. His career would be even greater. Crazy. Then again the Spurs wouldn't have been bad enough to get him at that point. He could have ended up in Golden State or Milwaukee.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:20 PM ----------

I have Magic below Larry. When both were healthy, Larry looked like he would've been the superior player. Unfortunately, Bird broke his back, Reggie Lewis/Len Bias died and the Celtics championship window slammed shut. So because he has 3 rings, he is put behnd Magic who has five.

But a SF giving you 28/10/6 a game while being lethally clutch and good in a team defensive system is pretty much impossible to go against.

It's pretty crazy how much bad luck hit the Celtics right around the end of that era. It's as if the basketball gods decided their time was over and decided to end it in the most cruel ways possible. At least they finally made it back.

[deejaydana]

Magic is the best Laker ever IMO...

Yup. Unquestionably. Quite an honor when you consider what players have laced up the hightops for this team.

[authentic]

I think Kareem is #2 behind Jordan. If you look at his whole basketball career including his time at UCLA, I think he's arguably the greatest basketball player in American history, just a bit ahead of Jordan.

But just off of NBA history, which is all anyone usually cares about, I'd say he's #2.

Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game. But as a total basketball player, which as minimal weaknesses as anyone who ever played. I gotta give it to MJ.

-superior scorer
-superior perimeter defender
-possessed the ability to facilitate, in the mode of a PG
-One of the hardest workers on his game
-Made his teammates better

His only weakness, IMO was his 3 point shooting. Kareem was an all time great, he's not above or on par with MJ, IMO. No one is.

---------- Post added December-6th-2012 at 12:31 PM ----------

Yup. Unquestionably. Quite an honor when you consider what players have laced up the hightops for this team.

Not only that, but there is NO one that made his teammates into all stars the way that Magic did. He single-handedly made careers for alot of his teammates.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I think he might finish in the top ten. That's where I voted. He'll never be top five though.

- Jordan
- Russell
- Wilt
- Kareem
- Bird you can make a great case he better than Bird
- Magic you can make the case he better than him too
- Oscar
- Moses {Kobe better than him too
- Karl Malone (absolutely not)

That's an easy 9 who were better than him and he will probably never pass in significant individual achievements. LeBron is going to pass him too. And Kobe still has work to do to distance himself from Hakeem, Robinson, West, Shaq, and Barkley(he is better than all of them too). Right now he's milling around their tier.

And if you include ABA in the discussion, Dr. J and Artis Gilmore are currently ahead of him. [no they are not

Problem with Kobe's legacy is he's lacked the efficiency of the other all time greats and got three of his rings as the sidekick on his team. Plus he's never had a year of his career where you could say he was indisputably the best player in the league that season. He's been the fourth best player of his era behind Duncan, Dirk, and Garnett(the only legit argument is Duncan who you underrate all time)and has only starter to catch up to them now that they are old.

But I think by the time he hangs it up he'll have such a crazy volume of stats he'll force his way into the top ten discussion just like how Karl Malone did it. He looks like he's got years left to his career.

the hate im seeing of Kobe's greatness is mindboggling and sad.

[PF Chang]

Ultimately it's impossible to answer this question as there are far too many variables and nobody can agree how to weigh each of them. But it's fascinating to observe how small differences could completely shift opinion. If Jordan is called for the offensive foul in the 1998 finals, maybe the Jazz win that series. Suddenly Malone's career is viewed infinitely more favorably. All from changing 5 quarters of basketball over a 15+ year career, we completely change how effective of a player we think Malone is.

There is no way that winning those 2 games makes Malone 20% better at basketball, but winning them would have convinced everyone he was better by an even greater factor than 20%.

[JMS]

I have Magic below Larry. When both were healthy, Larry looked like he would've been the superior player. Unfortunately, Bird broke his back, Reggie Lewis/Len Bias died and the Celtics championship window slammed shut.

Larry hurt his back building a basketball court at his mothers house in French Lick. Larry was too cheap to hire people to haul the gravel and did all the work himself.... that's when he first threw out his back, and it was the beginning of his back problems.

So because he has 3 rings, he is put behnd Magic who has five.

But a SF giving you 28/10/6 a game while being lethally clutch and good in a team defensive system is pretty much impossible to go against.

Kobe is top 10 shooting guards all time, maybe top 5... I don't think he's even top 5 Lakers though....

1. Kareem
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Elgine Baylor ( all time franchise record for points per game )
5. Shaq ( dominated, lead league in shot percentage, rebounding, and defense inside )
6. George Mikan ( Changed the Game, dominated, lead league in shot percentage, rebounding, and defense inside )
7. Kobi ( at best he's a poor jordan, moody without the leadership skills, at worse and often a good Alan Iverson ).
8. Jerry West
9. Jamaal Wilkes
10. Gail Goodrich

On a bright side, he's be #1 for many franchises in the NBA... But not the Lakers or Celtics.

[Forehead]

Say what you will about Hakeem benefitting from Jordan's baseball sabbatical, but that "Dream Shake" move he put on David Robinson is probably the most incredible set of moves I've ever seen out of a big man.

[PeterMP]

Larry hurt his back building a basketball court at his mothers house in French Lick. Larry was too cheap to hire people to haul the gravel and did all the work himself.... that's when he first threw out his back, and it was the beginning of his back problems.

1. It was her driveway not a basketball court.

2. I don't think it was an indication of how cheap he was, but just his personality in terms of here's a job to do and I can do it so I'll do it.

[stevemcqueen1]

Kobe is a better all around player than Elgin was and he's played at a top level for a much longer period than Elgin did. Elgin was great and people are blown away when they see his crazy numbers but I don't think people account for the pace of the NBA he played in when they remember him. When you adjust for pace and efficiency and factor in his team success and surrounding talent, he comes out as a lesser player than Kobe IMO. Sure he has all of these signature shots that were crazy but what about all of the ones he missed? He was a forward that shot .431 for his career. Less efficient than Kobe. The NBA was full of chuckers back then and they played at a breakneck pace.

When all is said and done, I think Kobe will definitely be remembered as a better Laker than Magic. Magic was not the two way player Kobe used to be and benefited from playing on much better teams throughout his career than Kobe did (which is saying something, because Kobe has had some great teams). Kobe is going to play for at lot longer than Magic did.

Wilt played only a small portion of his career for the Lakers, I don't think they get to claim him. His most meaningful years of his career were really played in San Francisco and Philly. If anyone gets to claim him, it's them IMO. Sure, if you want to include him on the list of best players to don a Lakers jersey, he's #2. But I don't think he's remembered as a Laker.

Mikan was dominant year, but I just can't get behind him. The NBA was a joke back then when he played. The level of professionalism and competitiveness between then and now are so different, it's like they're not even playing the same sport.

Kobe is also a better Laker than Shaq, who really did not play that many years of his career there.

I think Kobe will go down as a better player than Shaq outright. Shaq left a lot on the table and he caused rifts in almost every organization he ever went to. People let Shaq off the hook and blame Kobe for the split in LA, and while he might have forced management to choose him over Shaq, Shaq was no saint. He burned down a couple organizations in his day and was just as difficult as Kobe.

I put Kobe #2 for the Lakers by the time he hangs it up. He's spent his entire career there and he's played at a high level for almost all of it. He won two rings as the man on his team and he's put up crazy numbers, and will continue to do so for years more.

[JMS]

1. It was her driveway not a basketball court.

In his autobiography "Drive", Bird talked about looking forward in the offseason to building his own basketball court at his mothers home in French lick which he purchased for her and where he lived while in town during the off season.
It was really Bird's house.. He paid for it, he cut the grass and did all the yard work, but he put it in her name. In the book he specifically talks about doing all the work himself on the new court in order to save money...

Bird is one of the cheapest dudes alive. At every social occasion in the book Bird talks about how much the people he was with were spending even for things such as cocktails and beer. When agents bought beer from him
while recruiting him to be an NBA player (agent for Indianapolis), Bird was so impressed with it he itemized what they had spent in his autobiography. Noting that's the first time he had ever had Heineken, and the first time he had every seen anybody
use the bar in a hotel room. Also noting he could have purchased an entire six pack for what the agent has spent. Bird chuckled to himself that he had even gotten a second beer, and ultimately didn't sign with the Pacers.

2. I don't think it was an indication of how cheap he was, but just his personality in terms of here's a job to do and I can do it so I'll do it.

Bird definitely had a work ethic.. and he definitely believed pain and injury were not something which should impact your playing time. In his book he
spoke of his father. Helping his father on with his boots after his father had broken his foot as his father was trying to get to work in the morning, because that's what working men did. Work hurt if they had too. That made
a big impression on Bird. But Bird was also very cheap, counted every penny, and was amused when he saw others spending money needlessly even if the focus was a $5 beer
at the Olympics which Patrick Ewing bought for Bird. Bird felt the need to go up to Patrick and make sure he knew how expensive the beer was at the hotel.
Patrick didn't know, and seemed confused by Bird's concern.

Bird didn't really like Patrick Ewing. It was common for Bird to avoid getting to know the people he competed against and building up disdain for them. when Ewing purhased the beer for Bird and his Girl Friend; Bird felt the obligation to hang out and chat with him. They became pretty good friends through the Olympic Dream Team according to Bird.