NFL.com: Robert Griffin III triggers Washington Redskins' pistol offense

[Oldfan]

...Your defense by design does just that. I don't think you are so much taking away what the offense does best as giving it exactly what it wants. You may slow the running game but you would be gashed by the passing game IMO. That's the beauty of RGIII he is a great running threat but he is even MORE dangerous as a passer.

We're right back to the same problem. You think our receivers are capable of fighting past the press and beating DBs man-to-man. I don't see that happening.

Didn't Dilfer say in the video posted that he has never seen so many receivers so open? Haven't you seen that too? Mike knows how to get his receivers open against zone coverages. That's scheme. Our receivers as a group are nothing special.

---------- Post added December-8th-2012 at 04:52 AM ----------

Garçon IMO for one.

Garcon is the only one and he's a maybe.

---------- Post added December-8th-2012 at 04:59 AM ----------

Slot was one example, but a guy split wide can be off the LOS as well you know, right?

This is too easy... quick slants and hitches all day. I would definitely give you a call after the game and thank you for nullifying the athleticism of your CBs for me as well.

My friend, you got nothing. NUH - THING! (Imagine in Robert DeNiro's voice)

[MartinC]

Didn't Dilfer say in the video posted that he has never seen so many receivers so open? Haven't you seen that too? Mike knows how to get his receivers open against zone coverages. That's scheme. Our receivers as a group are nothing special.

Mike and Kyle can get receivers open against man and zone. Your right though that it is scheme getting receivers open and my contention is the running scheme is designed to draw defenders out of position to cover the pass. We are making the defense respond to our running game which is creating opportunities in the passing game. IMO what you are suggesting as a defensive strategy is doing exactly the same - your reacting to our running game and in doing so opening up the pass.

Your thinking is that having the safeties press on the receivers will disrupt the timing on any play and reduce your defenses vulnerability to the pass. I disagree with you there but that's just my opinion versus yours so we will have to agree to disagree.

[Oldfan]

...Your thinking is that having the safeties press on the receivers will disrupt the timing on any play and reduce your defenses vulnerability to the pass. I disagree with you there but that's just my opinion versus yours so we will have to agree to disagree.

I suspect that the NFL is about to make a return to man-to-man anyway. Mike Shanahan isn't the only coach who has no trouble getting receivers open against zone coverage. And, it seems like every game I watch there's an easy TD scored on a blown coverage.

[MartinC]

I suspect that the NFL is about to make a return to man-to-man anyway. Mike Shanahan isn't the only coach who has no trouble getting receivers open against zone coverage. And, it seems like every game I watch there's an easy TD scored on a blown coverage.

I think if you have the talent in your defensive backfield man coverage is preferable to zone. For me it gives you more flexibility to be creative with your pressure packages and as per your ideas in this thread stop the run. It also reduces your chance of the blown coverage as you note.

However you need the talent to run it successfully. I don't watch that much College football but what I do watch does not fill me with confidence that there is a ready supply of corners coming through who will excel in man coverage in the Pros.

I think we will see a lot more zone than man from teams who play us. Right or wrong they will be too worried about the threat of RGIII running to play us in man as their base coverage.

[Oldfan]

....I think we will see a lot more zone than man from teams who play us. Right or wrong they will be too worried about the threat of RGIII running to play us in man as their base coverage.

You're probably right, but it would only take one team to successfully defend us by playing man coverage to start a trend. But, if they're going to do it, they have to keep Robert contained, of course.

[SkinsGuy]

The only way to truly stop this offense is to have 12 men on the field.

Or hope RG3 makes a mistake.

Or hope a hurricane is coming onshore in the vicinity of the game every week.

[DogofWar1]

Which of our receivers is good enough to fight past the press and then consistently beat man coverage?

...And the defense is going to be gashed by our third receiver?

Garcon could probably do it. Moss is a savvy vet too, he's probably smart enough to find a way to beat it. Barring that, you could always have a speed guy come out of the backfield as a 3rd WR. Robinson's already done that a couple times this year, and Hank can get deep too. If we really wanted to, you could take the TE off the field and put Garcon, Moss, Hank, and Robinson out there, they're all sub-4.5 guys, if not sub-4.4 guys. I think Kyle would find a way to get someone deep if they don't have safety help. It would probably slow us down, but it probably wouldn't stop us.

I think our receivers are a little better than you give them credit for. They might not be the best group in the NFL, but they are definitely a solid group of guys, and I think our #3 WR, whether it's Morgan, Hankerson, Moss, or whoever, could probably beat a team's #3 corner or a linebacker if they went 1 on 1.

Even assuming you contain the outside AND the pass though, we gash them down the middle every play until they finally change scheme. Then we exploit that change.

I think Dilfer broke down the pick your poison situation that other team's defenses are in, in that radio segment he did.

[Oldfan]

Garcon could probably do it. Moss is a savvy vet too, he's probably smart enough to find a way to beat it. Barring that, you could always have a speed guy come out of the backfield as a 3rd WR. Robinson's already done that a couple times this year, and Hank can get deep too.

I wrote earlier, in a reply to Martin, that Garcon was the only receiver we have who might, on occasion, beat man-to-man coverage after being pressed by a safety. Aldrick Robinson got deep only after the corner and safety playing zone both bit on play action. That doesn't happen in the coverage I'm suggesting.

...It would probably slow us down, but it probably wouldn't stop us.

Slowing the other team down is the defensive coordinator's objective. Shutting down any phase of an offense completely isn't realistic.

...Even assuming you contain the outside AND the pass though, we gash them down the middle every play until they finally change scheme. Then we exploit that change.

You are going to gash them down the middle on every play? That's tough talk, but how are you going to do it? Your team doesn't have the talent to back up your boast. Your line is too light for pass protection or for running inside zone on every play.

[DogofWar1]

I wrote earlier, in a reply to Martin, that Garcon was the only receiver we have who might, on occasion, beat man-to-man coverage after being pressed by a safety. Aldrick Robinson got deep only after the corner and safety playing zone both bit on play action. That doesn't happen in the coverage I'm suggesting.

But again, that's the thing, there's only 2 safeties. If Robinson or Moss is the 3rd guy, they might get a free release. And man-to-man is tough to play well consistently. If we were up against Revis, Bailey, and Jennings all at once, then definitely there's a problem, but odds are that if you've got Garcon and Morgan on the outside and Moss on the inside, the 3rd CB is covering Moss, and I have faith that Moss could beat most #3s in the league.

And I think if he's given a free release (so lined up as the 3rd or 4th WR or have him out of the backfield) Robinson can outrun almost any corner assigned to him. You couldn't do that once you got past the opponents 40, there's not enough field left for him to run on, but try that on our own 30, and with his speed he probably gets a step on the corner unless the defender is giving Robinson a big cushion (in which case he runs a hitch and RGIII rockets him the ball). Here's where RGIII's deep accuracy makes him scary, he's not going to under throw Robinson and end up with an INT; if Robinson gets that step RGIII probably hits him deep.

Or go 4 wide, 1 RB. Suddenly you can only bump 2 guys, and you've got to either play a dime package (taking someone off the field), or a nickel and have a safety or linebacker cover the 4th guy, and that hole is a place to attack on the outside. If 4 defenders are covering receivers, and they rush 4, then there's 3 guys to cover the outside on both sides. The triple option becomes useful there too because the defense is thin. I suppose you could take someone off the line rushing only 3, allowing you to keep 4 guys to cover the outsides, but if you don't get pressure with 3, RGIII will have enough time to wait for Garcon to beat his man.

Which goes back to Romo to Bryant twice last year. We had Hall 1-on-1, and the problem was Romo didn't release the ball until like 5 or 6 seconds after the snap, and Hall had to cover Bryant for I think 7 seconds. All but the best in the league are going to have trouble going man-to-man for that long. If RGIII wasn't as mobile, it'd definitely be a problem, but he can pretty easily extend plays with his feet. Odds are, 5 or 6 seconds in the corners are going to have a tough time staying close.

And all this ignores what happens if RGIII just decides to trust his WRs to come down with the ball in a fight. Moss was double covered in Philly and just fought for the ball. Garcon could and probably would do the same. It's risky, but if they're one on one in a fight to come down with the ball, I trust Garcon and Moss over the average CB every day of the week.

You are going to gash them down the middle on every play? That's tough talk, but how are you going to do it? Your team doesn't have the talent to back up your boast.

Morris is a tough runner. He can probably handle 20-25 carries a game easily, if not 30+. The biggest problem would be late in the game when Morris is slowing down. Royster would have to step up, or we'd have to rely on Young. But I doubt a team would continue allowing Morris to run up the middle if every play he's grabbing 6+ yards.

And even if they don't change scheme, it requires defensive players to keep executing their jobs well. If someone decides to get antsy and jump at the RB expecting another run, RGIII is going to just use the zone read and attack the hole. JPP was probably told to hold the edge a hundred times last week before the game, and yet he bit on a bunch of plays. If almost every play is a run up the middle, sooner or later someone is going to get distracted and make a mistake.

It also wouldn't help that the defense would be on the field for long periods of time. Eventually they're going to get winded, and when that happens man-to-man is going to start breaking down, or RGIII can just outrun the tired defenders on the outside.

As for the Oline, we've been very solid in run blocking. Pass blocking has been the problem. Our guys can generally get enough push to give Morris a hole somewhere, and he's tough enough to get yards there. I suppose the DLine could focus on gap defense and stopping the run, but then there'd be fewer rushers, and fewer rushers means more time to throw meaning more chances for man-to-man to break down.

[CoolHandLuke]

Zone or Man coverage isn't going to matter. Defenses are only picking their poison.

[Oldfan]

DW1:

You have projected that:

-- Hankerson and Robinson, who have done little against single coverage, being able to fight past the safety press and get open deep against the corner in man coverage;

-- Santana, who struggled against the corner press in his prime, now being able to beat the safety press in what is probably his final season because of his "savvy" in addition to his being able to separate from any third DB in the NFL;

-- Based on Santana being able to do it once, you think our receiving corps can routinely come down with receptions on jump balls;

-- Morris would average 6+ yards if he ran every play up the middle through the holes opened by our light offensive line, even though he doesn't average that much with both the inside and outside available.

I'll concede defeat. There's no way I can defend against your fantasy Redskins offense.

[DogofWar1]

OF, who is bumping the 3rd and 4th WR? Let's say we have Garcon, Morgan, Moss, and Robinson on the field at once, Garcon and Morgan outside, Moss, Robinson inside. Safeties bump 2 of them, probably Garcon and Morgan outside, then hand off to the CBs. Who is bumping Moss and Robinson? More importantly who is covering Moss and Robinson!? You have 4 DBs working on 2 WRs/covering the edge, but still have 2 WRs to cover. Do you go dime package? Who gets taken off the field on defense then, a linebacker so there's less coverage in the middle, or a pass rusher, so we get better protection? Do you go nickel, with a LB covering the 4th guy? Either way, in your scenario you have 6 guys either covering the outside or covering WRs.

That leaves 5 guys to pass rush and cover the middle. That's a small number of defenders. I suppose if they all defend the run, 5 guys could work, but again, it's a bad idea to leave your CBs on an island for extended periods, and without a pass rush exactly that would happen. You seem to be assuming the #3 and #4 corners/LBs play perfect man coverage (or that we only have 2 WRs on the field and not 3 or 4), but that is far from a given.

As for jump balls, I'm not saying it's not risky, but when you put a WR and a CB 1 on 1 (or a WR and a LB 1 on 1), with a well thrown ball, I put my money on the WR more often than not.

And again, if they're passing off to the CBs, I'm assuming the CBs are playing a little bit deep, meaning I'd be running hitch routes all day. Safety passes WR off after 5 yards, corner is backpedaling, WR turns around, RGIII throws a quick hitch. Alternatively, if we're worried about the safety falling back and jumping the hitch route, pump fake. If the safety bites and falls back you get to the outside quick at the hole his bite just created, if he doesn't then hand it off on a draw play, or just throw the hitch if the WR is still open.

And this goes doubly for the 1 or 2 WRs who aren't covered by safeties on the outside. They are 1 on 1 from the start, so I'm running short routes and double moves from the get-go. If the corners play up on them, fine, go back to the 5 defenders vs. 5 lineman + Morris situation, OR the CBs on an island for extended period of time situation.

Also, what if we line up trips left (or right), TE right side (or left), with Morris in the backfield? The safeties are either A) letting an extra receiver off the line without a bump and playing the other side OR B) are both lined up on one side, meaning you can run to the other. Have Paulson block, run the triple option to the other side. With a slow immobile QB it wouldn't work, but with RGIII it can. Or just run trips right and run Morris behind Trent on the left side (you'd probably pull the TE on that and sub in Young to block as FB). If they cover the run to the left, less WRs get hit with safety press and likely get open on the right, if they cover the WRs then we run to the left.

Or we could do the 2 WR, 2 RB, 1 FB thing where there's 3 guys back there with RGIII in a sort of diamond shape. Someone mentioned that it was nicknamed the "uzzi." You've got the safeties wide, and 2 CBs wide too, so there's 7 guys in the middle. If you run a stretch run at that point, you've got 5 lineman+1 RB+1FB blocking at most 8 guys (7 guys + safety on the side you run to). Assuming everyone gets to their assignments, Morris should be able to get some yardage on those. And that's assuming we don't have the WR block too. Morgan is a solid blocker, he could help stop the safety.

I'm basically just repeating Dilfer's analysis with some added potential examples, which is that we do enough things well enough that there will always be a weak spot somewhere on non-pass only downs (so basically anything that's not 3rd and long), unless you've got a full team of All-Pros against you. The key is finding the weakness, and RGIII has been smart enough to find those on the fly thus far this year, and if not, Kyle will draw up plays once he sees the coverages.

[Oldfan]

OF, who is bumping the 3rd and 4th WR?...

When I look at the Skins offense, I see one star (RG3), three good supporting actors (Garcon, Morris and Williams) and seven bit players. As a DC, I'm not concerned at all about those bit players beating my defense. In fact, I wouldn't bother having the safety press our second receiver if I didn't want the safety in that short zone anyway. I'm not defending against Green Bay's offensive talent at receiver here.

In addition to Griffins talent, the major threat against my defense is SCHEME. I have to find an answer for the Pistol and it isn't playing zone the way everybody else plays it. The Shanahans get even second-rate receivers open when facing your garden variety zone coverages.

So, if you don't like my idea for a defense, what's yours? Do you forfeit to a team with an offense that has only four good players?

We could debate forever how I counter your counter. I'm not going to get into that. As a DC my objective is to limit what you do best and force you to counter with what you don't do as well. I have you doing that. But, I can't defend against your inflated opinions of our personnel.

[DogofWar1]

So, if you don't like my idea for a defense, what's yours? Do you forfeit to a team with an offense that has only four good players?

I think you might be underrating some of our guys, at least as far as their play post bye week. Griffin, Morris, Trent, and Garcon are definitely the top. That being said, Monty has played very very well, and is quietly getting a lot of praise. Davis is injured, but assuming defenses are still trying to counter our offense next year they'll have to contend with him as well. Young can't be discounted, he's been a very solid FB, and creates a major impact when he's on the field.

And while I wouldn't exactly classify them as solidified, Lich and Chester have done decently enough. Mainly they've been solid in run blocking, but they've done ok in pass protection too. Polumbus is the weak link on the line, but next year, with hopefully someone new and better, it adds another problem for defenses.

But I also think our WR corp deserves a bit more credit, at least when you scheme to put them in positions to succeed. Do I trust Moss man-to-man against a #1 corner? Probably not. Against a #3 corner? I think so, yes. Do I trust Robinson to beat safety press then man-to-man? No, definitely not. Do I trust him to beat a LB in a footrace? Yeah, definitely, and if he's the 4th WR, that's probably who's covering him. It's a matter of scheme to create mismatches, and so that if the defense counters those mismatches it opens different holes.

While we might not have the best personnel, we have the personnel to run a variety of Kyle's schemes on offense very well that no one defensive look can stop, and the fact is we have the ability to switch what we're doing on the fly. It's not an inflated opinion of our personnel, it's what we've been doing so far all season. Dilfer talked about teams trying to play man-to-man, specifically the Eagles, and it consistently ended with big plays for us. Now, your suggestion of safeties underneath is certainly an interesting wrinkle, so far as containing the outside, but there are counters we could bring out, and that's assuming the defense plays man-to-man perfectly.

If I had to stop Griffin, it would depend on what level of personnel I have available to me on defense. If I'm the 49ers, I'm rushing only 4 every play since Smith should be able to get to the QB, but explicitly telling my pass rushers only to focus on Griffin, not Morris. JPP made that mistake, he was supposed to hold the edge against Griffin, but instead kept crashing down on Morris and was directly responsible for Griffin's 46 yard run. If I'm the 49ers, I rush 4, try to get them to hand off to Morris, and let Bowman and Willis catch him within a yard or two of the line. Meanwhile, I play 2 deep safeties with corners man-to-man, and I'm not afraid to pull one linebacker off and sub in a corner for a nickel package, because I have faith in Bowman and Willis to hold the middle and stop the run.

Now, if I'm a much poorer defense than the 49ers, I would have to accept that if I can't get pressure with 4, Griffin is going to have too much time on his hands to not burn us, while alternatively accepting that if I rush 5, he generally kills defenses. I think the Giants realized that, which is why they changed their offense so much and tried to control the clock, rather than shut us down on defense.