Thoughts of a Negative Poster

[terpskins10]

The irony of a thread calling for more perspective and objectivity when the OP makes a comment like this, however well Robert may be playing, should not be lost on anyone...

Oh god please don't turn this into another QB evaluation thread. lol

[NLC1054]

Oh god please don't turn this into another QB evaluation thread. lol

Oh I know why he supposedly thinks that. I just think his reasoning for thinking it is flawed. To be very, very, very polite.

[Mad Mike]

I lied. One last thing...

Speaking of Belichick and Shannahan...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ther/?page=all

Mike Shanahan spent the 2009 season studying the NFL in ways he never had before. It was, after all, the first time he was out of coaching since 1974. He wanted to take advantage of the opportunity so he’d be sharper than ever when he took his next gig. He watched as many games as he could and sought the knowledge of the coaches he respects most. His path that summer led to the New England Patriots and his friend, coach Bill Belichick.

Combined, they have eight Super Bowl rings. Belichick’s 186 wins are the most of any active coach. Shanahan’s 164 are second. Shanahan will try to close that gap Sunday while Belichick looks to widen it when the Washington Redskins host the surging Patriots. “I think we’ve watched each other through the years,” Shanahan said. “We know what type of people that we try to get on our football team, what’s your makeup going to be. I know that he’s watched me. It’s been fun to talk about over a couple beers or dinner, something like that.”

http://nesn.com/2011/12/bill-belichi...-bowl-success/

Belichick has been in the NFL since 1975, and Shanahan made his debut in the league in 1984. They're 8-8 against one another, and Shanahan has a 5-3 edge in games when both were the head coach (all of which involved Shanahan's Broncos and Belichick's Patriots). Their biggest duel came in Super Bowl XXI, when Belichick was the defensive coordinator for the Giants in their 39-20 victory against the Broncos, who employed Shanahan as the offensive coordinator. Shanahan, though, has won his other two playoff meetings with Belichick, including their only matchup as head coaches in the 2005 divisional round.

"proven mediocre performer" indeed.

[elkabong82]

Your analogy doesn't work. We fans don't have the profit motive to seduce us.

The way I look at it. I can suspect being number one isn't Dan's goal or I can suspect he's a dimwit -- because the Shanahan and Allen hires don't make sense in that context. They both had a decade to show the kind of potential needed to do that job and couldn't cut it.

Since you keep bringing this point up, I will bring back up my point that Belichick and Pioli had a decade of mediocrity as well when they were hired by the Patriots. By your logic Kraft didn't want to win a Superbowl or be number one, and could not likely achieve such by hiring mediocre coaches. By your standards you would not have hired Belichick and Pioli in 2000 for the Patriots even though you said that you regard the Patriots as the #1 team in the NFL.

1991-95, Browns HC, 36-44 record. 1 playoff win. 1996 assistant coach, DB coach with Pats under Parcells, Superbowl appearance and loss. How much was due to Parcells though, one would wonder when determining whether or not to hire Belichick (just like Crennel and McDaniels did not work outwell later as HCs). 1997-99 asst. coach and DC under Parcells with Jets, 1 playoff win. And then there was the debacle where Beklichick was supposed to take over as HC of the Jets, then resigned and immediately went to the Pats, and the whole ordeal cost the Pats a 1st round pick.

Sorry, but under the standards you have set Oldfan, I can't believe you would hire Belichick in 2000 with that kind of background, nor Pioli who basically followed him and shares those records. Shanahan at least had 2 Superbowl wins prior. You also seem to exclude the possibility that Shanahan learned from his mistakes in Denver nor do you seem to consider the time Shanahan spent between coaching gigs observing and learning. Your foregone conclusion that Shanahan can only bring mediocrity means you have already excluded the possibility of the Skins getting to and winning in the playoffs, and that is a negative bias so long as the possibility exists.

[brandymac27]

I'd need the time to write about three pages to cover that topic. Briefly, RG3 is the best QB who ever played the game, IMO. But, there are lots of question marks: how long will he stay healthy? How much support will he need? Right now, Shanahan is using Robert's wheels to mask O-line weaknesses. How long will that last?

As great as he is, we paid a high price for RG3. The more we use his wheels, the more risk we take of injury.

I don't think RG3 will be enough to break us free of the mediocre level. I think Shanahan will need big drafts over the next couple of years to get us there. He will need to do better than he has in past years.

Well, I actually agree with just about everything you posted here. I also think RGIII is one of the best QB's to play the game, but I also think with his athletic ability alone it makes us more than mediocre.

I do get what you mean about our weaknesses and how long Griffin can manage to run this team with them (I also agree the O-line- especially the right side, and the secondary needs some work). One thing I'm sure will happen is that these weaknesses will be addressed, and the team as a whole will eventually be a force to be reckoned with on both sides of the ball.

[Oldfan]

That's Jim Zorn.

Jim Zorn's had a short-term contract, but that's the only thing about his situation that would be like what I would envision. It's not enough to have a plan, you need the right people to execute it. Zorn wasn't the right man and neither was Vinny.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:27 AM ----------

Well, I actually agree with just about everything you posted here. I also think RGIII is one of the best QB's to play the game, but I also think with his athletic ability alone it makes us more than mediocre.

I'm not as high on this team or on Mike Shanahan as you seem to be. I think Mike's a super offensive mind, but he has control of the entire team, not just the offense.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:40 AM ----------

Oh I know why he supposedly thinks that. I just think his reasoning for thinking it is flawed. To be very, very, very polite.

Tell you what... why don't you author a thread explaining your method of evaluating NFL QBs and I'll show up and we can debate the issue?

[NLC1054]

Jim Zorn's had a short-term contract, but that's the only thing about his situation that would be like what I would envision. It's not enough to have a plan, you need the right people to execute it. Zorn wasn't the right man and neither was Vinny.

And yet you can't be arsed to name one person who would've been a better candidate for head coach or general manager.

So you accuse Dan Snyder of not having the goal of having the number one organization in football because...I don't know, reasons or whatever, and then you suggests that hiring Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen was a bad move because of their history of being mediocre.

And ya know...there's a ton of evidence that proves that you're...misguided. To once again, put it politely. But what's even the point?

Ultimately you succeeded in your goal of bringing more negativity to the board in the midst of a lot of fans, even the more negative amongst us, being in a great mood

We can only hope to be such as grumpy and fatalist as you.

[Oldfan]

.... By your standards you would not have hired Belichick and Pioli in 2000 for the Patriots even though you said that you regard the Patriots as the #1 team in the NFL.

You are right. It's quite possible that I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:49 AM ----------

...We can only hope to be such as grumpy and fatalist as you.

Between your personal attacks, your boring sarcasm, and your incessant strawman arguments, you aren't worth my time.

[NLC1054]

Tell you what... why don't you author a thread explaining your method of evaluating NFL QBs and I'll show up and we can debate the issue?

I have no desire to "debate" you on why you think my method of doing anything is wrong. I've been done that road, and frankly you're not special enough for me to waste my time on creating a thread just for you to come in and trash. You believe that Robert's physical attributes alone make him the greatest quarterback who's ever played the game. I fundamentally disagree with that notion and with most of the **** you say. Calling someone the greatest to ever play when he's only played 13 games, no matter how spectacular, is hyperbolic, to say the least.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 01:50 AM ----------

Between your personal attacks, your boring sarcasm, and your incessant strawman arguments, you aren't worth my time.

You're such a ****ing bull**** artist. And I wish someone else would actually call you on it.

[zskins]

If the Redskins win the SB next year would you still say Mike and Bruce are mediocre?

[DogofWar1]

It's quite possible I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

Not in 2010, but at any point in, say, the last ten or fifteen years, who would you have hired as a coach if you were the owner? I'm trying to figure out the exact criteria that a coach would have to fulfill, but I'm having trouble determining what your exact criteria is. It sounds like you want someone young and hungry, but I have to imagine there's a minimum experience requirement.

Would maybe Kyle Shanahan have been closer in your eyes, a young offensive guru trying to escape his dad's shadow? Or maybe someone like Raheem Morris circa 2010? I'm just trying to get an idea.

[elkabong82]

It's quite possible I wouldn't have hired Belichik, but his record at Cleveland and Shanahan's with full control for 10 years are not comparable. Belichik was dealing with factors out of his control.

Under your standards of what a good coach hire should entail they absolutely are comparable as both fall short. If you're willing to admit to the possibility that your standards would have denied you Belichick, are you then willing to admit perhaps your standards need revising?

Really I think the better argument for you to make is the historical trend that no head coach has won a Superbowl with one team and then won another head coaching another team and thus, despite conventional wisdom, hiring a Superbowl-winning head coach is actually a bad idea. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least historical precedent would be on your side.

I don't trust Snyder to find a good up-and-comer. What I do trust is for him to bring in a quality experienced HC who then recommends one of those up-and-comers as his replacement.

[Oldfan]

I have no desire to "debate" you on why you think my method of doing anything is wrong.

Smart move.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:03 AM ----------

Under your standards of what a good coach hire should entail they absolutely are comparable as both fall short. If you're willing to admit to the possibility that your standards would have denied you Belichick, are you then willing to admit perhaps your standards need revising?

No. I would be looking for the best combination of brainpower and experience I could find in a man with a promising future. I don't want a retread.

Really I think the better argument for you to make is the historical trend that no head coach has won a Superbowl with one team and then won another head coaching another team and thus, despite conventional wisdom, hiring a Superbowl-winning head coach is actually a bad idea. I wouldn't agree with it, but at least historical precedent would be on your side.

That's not a sound argument.

I don't trust Snyder to find a good up-and-comer. What I do trust is for him to bring in a quality experienced HC who then recommends one of those up-and-comers.

I don't think Snyder is willing or able to lead this team to #1. So, I'm lowering my goal. I'll be satisfied if I can watch RG3 perform -- healthy -- for several years.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:07 AM ----------

Not in 2010, but at any point in, say, the last ten or fifteen years, who would you have hired as a coach if you were the owner?

I wanted Jim Schwartz here, not Zorn. But, he would not have put up with the Vinny and Dan show.

Schwartz has the brainpower to compete with Belichik. But, you would still need a GM.

[Bang]

7 mil a year is chump change DEs make 10 mil average.

Seriously, your assertion is that rich people just like to throw away 35 million dollars for essentially nothing?
Jim Zorn had us mediocre for a year.. how'd Dan like that? Not much patience for mediocrity in that case. Must have been the lack of name that soured him on Zorn so quickly after a mediocre season.
35 million .. and expecting nothing more than mediocrity and name recognition.
And you claim that on thoughtful reason this makes sense?
I'm sorry. That's ridiculous.

(BTW, read up on how players get paid. very very very few people get paid 10 mil per year, especially defensive ends. the salary and bonus structure precludes the vfast vast majority of players from making that much before they're forced to renegotiate or be cut. Average NFL salary clocks in around 1.9 mil.

According to this http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/...defensive-end/, 9 defensive ends make 10 mil or more. And on average, according to http://www.buzzle.com/articles/avera...-position.html including those top elite guys, the rest of the defensive ends in the league make about 1.5 million.. about 7 times less than your estimate.
but hey, they probably aren't following your salary guidelines, right?


~Bang

[Oldfan]

If the Redskins win the SB next year would you still say Mike and Bruce are mediocre?

If they did it with a perfect storm of luck, I'd still wait to see what they did for an encore. But if they put a solid team together and won it, I'd be tickled pink to say I was wrong about them.

---------- Post added December-14th-2012 at 02:22 AM ----------

Seriously, your assertion is that rich people just like to throw away 35 million dollars?

And you claim that on thoughtful reason this makes sense?
I'm sorry. That's ridiculous.

(BTW, read up on how players get paid. very very very few people get paid 10 mil per year, especially defensive ends. the salary and bonus structure precludes the vfast vast majority of players from making that much before they're forced to renegotiate or be cut.

~Bang

You are repeating the same argument. You don't like mine. I don't like yours.