WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[Elessar78]

Our per capita murder rate is also one of the highest in the developed world by far, almost four times higher than England & Wales. Russia is the only developed country with a murder rate higher than ours. Our murder rate is double the rate in India and five times the rate in China. It's over ten times the rate in Japan.

America has a massive gun problem at a scale that staggers anything else in the developed world.

Additionally, not to belittle Russia, but while it has a mature economy, things aren't exactly run with the rule of law. So again, we have an outlier, and many are not willing to accept that the US has a problem. First step toward fixing a problem is admitting you have one.

Being a gun owner and one who shoots for fun (clays), I think it's really a form of amusement for many. But guns are not toys and I'm not convinced 100% of gun owners believe that. Once again, powerful business has too big a say in our lives.

[skinsfan_1215]

Seems to be the same story with every big issue in this country.

I agree. This issue, unfortunately, IS a matter of life or death.

[Mad Mike]

Its not the guns alone, it's what is behind the gun culture that is the root of the problem. I call it the Kill Culture. When it's considered okay to kill other life for "sport" so much so that any talk of gun bans is quickly caveated with saying its not designed to take away a persons "right" to hunt you can see just how ****ed up society is. Killing is okay. It's considered "manly" and it's a very easy step from that to desensitizing our society to killing be it in videogames or in conducting "bloodless" wars where we don't see "the good guys" die but thrill on YouTube to "the enemy" (the other) being blasted by gunships and smart missiles.

I'm all for banning all guns. I don't get my rocks off killing. But I also know banning guns won't solve this problem. We live in a society that loves to kill. You will never see a society of Janeists have the problems our pathetic culture does.

Until people stop embracing the thrill to kill, be it other life or even synthetically through various entertainment, we will always be held back as a true civilized society.

There is a lot of truth here. But I think it goes hand in hand with the larger issue of an angry society full of conflicting ideologies, bombarded by doomsday fears from the economy to global warming to fabricated conspiracy theories and plain old stresses of life.

[stevemcqueen1]

So you'd be down with an amnesty and all out blanket ban Steve?

Hail.

*Edit* And naturally there's a World of difference in size of Country and gun use, in all aspects. But it's relative to the underground culture here. The last guns amnesty, 2003 or there about, they had 40K weapons handed in along with around a million rounds of ammo handed in to the police in the month duration. A drop in the ocean in American parlance, but a heck of a lot of illegal guns taken off of Britain's streets in relation to the size of population.

I think it would take a lot more than that to deal with our problem TBH.

You have to deal with the 270 million civilian owned guns already here to totally eradicate our problem like Japan and the UK have. And I don't think an amnesty is getting our people to hand them over. There would need to be a massive federal buyback and destruction of guns which I can't see ever happening. Like TRGE said before, you'd also need to nationalize the gun industry, which I can't ever see happening either. We don't trust the private sector to handle our drinking water, but we're perfectly content to let any one in the world make our guns and distribute them. There are too many cultural attitudes here that are impediments to change.

Japan forcibly disarmed their population following WWII and they quickly became one of the safest societies in the entire world as a result. This despite their population densities being incredibly high.

But Japanese society was in a state of turmoil then. They were coming out of a cauldron of total defeat and government collapse following the worst war in human history. Two of their cities had been wiped off the face of the Earth in minutes. Sweeping changes were in order.

Similarly, American society radically changed following the cauldron of the Civil War. You had the largest government seizure of private property in American history with the total and immediate eradication of slavery. That change was only possible because of the War.

I don't see there ever being a tipping point like that making it possible for American's to reorganize our society to eradicate guns like the UK and Japan have. We won't even move a fraction of the way. Americans actually enjoy our hyper militant and absurdly well armed society. It's a source of pride for us. Events like Newton are horrific but they don't even move the needle here. Look how many of the pro gun crowd came into this thread doubling down in the immediate aftermath!

In a month or two the country will have moved on from the tragedy status quo entirely intact. We'll repeat these arguments all over again the next horrific mass killing. Just hope it's not you or your loved ones that get murdered.

[autoidiodyssey]

Ruger stock was $6 a share in July 2008. It was $46 yesterday. Thats a pretty penny.

I believe the same is true of Smith & Wesson. Obama's election was the best thing that could have happened to the gun companies. The companies and dealers were able to drum up such fear that there would be another ban like under Clinton that sales went through the roof. All without Obama saying much at all about gun control. I remember going to the big gun show in Chantilly after the election in 2008. You could feel the fear and panic. Every table had a sign "Buy now before the ban". I can't imagine what sales are going to do now. with real talk of new controls.

[CTskins]

An attacker can travel 10 feet in a matter of seconds. If someone is breaking down your door, you don't have time to go through steps. If you hear someone creeping through your house or trying to break in, you grab your loaded gun and be ready to fire as quickly as possible. There are biometric gun safes that open with a thumb print but they need improvement many models can easily be broken into and the good ones are expensive. Still, I'm not opposed to reasonable requirements for locking weapons up.

We all hope that nothing more than a big club is required. But ask Sean Taylor what happens when you bring a knife to a gunfight.

Thank you for proving my point. It seems that lawful or law abiding directly contradicts the self-defense argument, thereby making it a cop-out in most circumstances. Either you are law abiding and your fire arm is locked in a safe, unloaded, and a trigger lock or your loaded gun is easier to access than is prescribed (nay, mandated) by law. I have no problem with guns or people who lawfully own them, are properly trained, and are of sound mind. But make no mistake gun ownership is a responsiblity, not a right, regardless of what the 2nd amendment says.

[Destino]

There won't be a overall gun ban here. The anti-gun vote isn't nearly large enough to push that through even if the only requirement were passing a law and not change the constitution.

Personally I don't believe every tragedy requires new laws. I think lawmaking isn't taken seriously enough and we're way too eager to make changes on the fly without thinking things through. We can't structure society around the idea of preventing a human being from figuring out a way to do something horrible. This requires a cultural shift more than a legal one.

[Painkiller]

Here is what I think the problems are, and the "gun" isn't anywhere on my list. People want honest dialogue, common sense discussion? Ok, try this on.

**An American culture that largely glorifies accumulation of wealth and status above all other human achievement, and it doesn't matter how you get it and who or what you have to **** over in the process. GREED

**because of that glorifed culture of wealth and status, two parents have to be in the work force so people can afford the best "stuff"...because you know....how their peers "view" them is the all important driving force here.

**Their children (because people still like to have sex) are left to their own devices, or are being raised in day cares or by baby sitters who have no emotional attachment to the children whatsoever, and are basically just making sure they don't "jump off a cliff" before the parents get home from work.

**Parents who are weary from work and "life's problems" and are all too eager to plop the kids down in front of televisions and video game consoles to "get the kids out of my hair for a while." Ignoring the fact that all day they have been at work, and have spent no time with their children at all.

**Over time, the child ends up raising itself, using what "educational" tools he/she finds readily available. Violent video games, sex, drugs, and violence on television 24/7. GASP the Internet.

**The child becomes an adult without having any respect for people, because it wasn't taught to have respect. No empathy for people, because it wasn't taught to have empathy. Morals and Manners? What are they? All this adds up to creating a growing population of social rejects. People who care nothing for their fellow man, and would just as soon spit on you than shake your hand or talk to you. A morally, ethically, and spiritually bankrupt culture...and it's only getting worse.

**Bonus: A cultural and social "civil war" that rages between the "secular" coasts, and the "spiritual" middle of the country, which rears it's ugly head every election season...where you are either on one side or the other. Middle ground? What's that? Comprimise? Don't understand the meaning. I just know that the other side is BAD, and the root of all evil.

that's a start

---------- Post added December-15th-2012 at 04:25 PM ----------

and here's some more,

**vilifying and marginalizing women and men who want to be homemakers and raise their children "the right way" as loafers and lay abouts. People who have no direction or motivation. Not realizing that it's not about "needing" a man or woman to take care of you, but it's about raising your children and teaching them right from wrong, should you choose to have kids.

**The all together absence of one or more parents in the home, removing any possibility of having an upbringing the way nature intended humans to be. (We'll leave God out of this) Stating that a "single father" or "single mother" is just as capable and effective of raising a child per capita, as both parents would have been. Are their success stories? Absolutely, but they are not the norm. If a child was only intended to be raised by one parent, why does it take a man and a woman to create the child? Not just one like in that old 80's B-movie "Enemy Mine"

[CTskins]

Here is what I think the problems are, and the "gun" isn't anywhere on my list. People want honest dialogue, common sense discussion? Ok, try this on.

**An American culture that largely glorifies accumulation of wealth and status above all other human achievement, and it doesn't matter how you get it and who or what you have to **** over in the process. GREED

**because of that glorifed culture of wealth and status, two parents have to be in the work force so people can afford the best "stuff"...because you know....how their peers "view" them is the all important driving force here.

**Their children (because people still like to have sex) are left to their own devices, or are being raised in day cares or by baby sitters who have no emotional attachment to the children whatsoever, and are basically just making sure they don't "jump off a cliff" before the parents get home from work.

**Parents who are weary from work and "life's problems" and are all too eager to plop the kids down in front of televisions and video game consoles to "get the kids out of my hair for a while." Ignoring the fact that all day they have been at work, and have spent no time with their children at all.

**Over time, the child ends up raising itself, using what "educational" tools he/she finds readily available. Violent video games, sex, drugs, and violence on television 24/7. GASP the Internet.

**The child becomes an adult without having any respect for people, because it wasn't taught to have respect. No empathy for people, because it wasn't taught to have empathy. Morals and Manners? What are they? All this adds up to creating a growing population of social rejects. People who care nothing for their fellow man, and would just as soon spit on you than shake your hand or talk to you. A morally, ethically, and spiritually bankrupt culture...and it's only getting worse.

**Bonus: A cultural and social "civil war" that rages between the "secular" coasts, and the "spiritual" middle of the country, which rears it's ugly head every election season...where you are either on one side or the other. Middle ground? What's that? Comprimise? Don't understand the meaning. I just know that the other side is BAD, and the root of all evil.

that's a start

People often want to dumb this issue down, Well I think you went the other way and are overcomplicating things. Raising children is a two person job even if one is at home every day with the child(ren). I take care of my 4-month old for one day per workweek and it is the toughest day of my week.

At the end of the day its about responsibility. Have you ever read the 2nd amendment? It's quite short and I'm surprised about the amount and degrees of interpretation to which it gives rise.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It is literally one sentence, but the gun lobby focuses only on the bold, when the italics is just as important, if not more, when considering personal responsibility.

[Painkiller]

People often want to dumb this issue down, Well I think you went the other way and are overcomplicating things. Raising children is a two person job even if one is at home every day with the child(ren). I take care of my 4-month old for one day per workweek and it is the toughest day of my week.

At the end of the day its about responsibility. Have you ever read the 2nd amendment? It's quite short and I'm surprised about the amount and degrees of interpretation to which it gives rise.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It is literally one sentence, but the gun lobby focuses only on the bold, when the italics is just as important, if not more, when considering personal responsibility.

You completely missed my point. We have problems in this country that have absolutely nothing to do with the Guns themselves. How many peole that died in Oklahoma City were shot? None that I know of. How many people that died on 9/11 were shot? None that I know of.

Imagine a pie chart that broke down to a measurable percentage every single cultural and social problem in the United States that leads us to an event like what happened on Friday. What percentage of that pie chart do you honestly think breaks down to the guns themselves?

[PeterMP]

**vilifying and marginalizing women and men who want to be homemakers and raise their children "the right way" as loafers and lay abouts. People who have no direction or motivation. Not realizing that it's not about "needing" a man or woman to take care of you, but it's about raising your children and teaching them right from wrong, should you choose to have kids.

**The all together absence of one or more parents in the home, removing any possibility of having an upbringing the way nature intended humans to be. (We'll leave God out of this) Stating that a "single father" or "single mother" is just as capable and effective of raising a child per capita, as both parents would have been. Are their success stories? Absolutely, but they are not the norm. If a child was only intended to be raised by one parent, why does it take a man and a woman to create the child? Not just one like in that old 80's B-movie "Enemy Mine"

I don't see a lot of people villfiying stay at home parents. I know quite a few and they don't seem to feel vilified.

It takes two turtles to make a turtle, but they don't get raised by other turtles at all. I'm unsure of how "nature" intended for humans to be rasied, but from what I know nature doesn't tend to put all of its eggs in one basket (e.g. there are variations in population that lead to "best" out comes via different approaches.)

I thought you did pretty well with the top part, but the last two seemed more like pushing a personal agenda with talking points rather than a real discussion/informed points.

---------- Post added December-15th-2012 at 04:44 PM ----------

You completely missed my point. We have problems in this country that have absolutely nothing to do with the Guns themselves. How many peole that died in Oklahoma City were shot? None that I know of. How many people that died on 9/11 were shot? None that I know of.

Imagine a pie chart that broke down to a measurable percentage every single cultural and social problem in the United States that leads us to an event like what happened on Friday. What percentage of that pie chart do you honestly think breaks down to the guns themselves?

Do you believe Europe is better in terms of families raising kids in the manner you describe?

[CTskins]

Actually I thought raising the personal responsibility issue meshes quite well with your point. Don't miss the forest (Personal resposibility) for the trees (view on gun).

Each person needs to take responsibility for their lives...Live within ones' means, raise a child as a family, if someone you care about is mentally ill, help them (Yes, we are our brothers' keeper), practice gun safety. I could go on...

[autoidiodyssey]

Imagine a pie chart that broke down to a measurable percentage every single cultural and social problem in the United States that leads us to an event like what happened on Friday. What percentage of that pie chart do you honestly think breaks down to the guns themselves?

I think like everything in this country it depends on who you ask. Going back to your cultural/social civil war idea. The "blame the tool side" will say it is almost exclusively the guns fault. If not for guns there would be no gun crime. The "blame the crazy side", which I lean towards, will point to the far more complex social issues at play.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think like everything in this country it depends on who you ask. Going back to your cultural/social civil war idea. The "blame the tool side" will say it is almost exclusively the guns fault. If not for guns there would be no gun crime. The "blame the crazy side", which I lean towards, will point to the far more complex social issues at play.

And, as is often ignored in these debates, the majority of people realize it is somewhere in the middle and believe we can try to make appropriate changes in more than one place.

[Painkiller]

Actually I thought raising the personal responsibility issue meshes quite well with your point. Don't miss the forest (Personal resposibility) for the trees (view on gun).

Each person needs to take responsibility for their lives...Live within ones' means, raise a child as a family, if someone you care about is mentally ill, help them (Yes, we are our brothers' keeper), practice gun safety. I could go on...

and that's another huge point. Personal responsibility. Say it with me. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY Where has it gone? We have raised generations of children to believe that everything that happens to them in their lives is the fault of somebody else. They take no ownership in what happens to them. They take no ownership or responsibility for their own behavior. It has nothing to do with the choices THEY make. We subsidize this kind of thinking with our "sue" happy culture, which can spin almost anything to convince a lot of people that "you know what, you are right. The steaming cup of hot McDonald's coffee SHOULD say "I'm hot" on the side of it."

My point in all this, is to show that to blame a single one thing on why "gun" massacres are happening, the "gun" itself is like blaming the car for the accident, or a stove for the burn.