WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't know if that can all be accredited to law changes though, as much as societal shifts. Not that they haven't played a part, but like anything else, there is single correct answer.

It's not a straightforward cause and effect issue. Drug laws in the 80s got tougher (stupidly so in some cases). Drug education became far more important (reactionary so in some cases). There was a cultural shift away from glorifying drug use as the bodies started to pile up.

Same with DUI laws. American highways are safer than they have ever been. A large part of that is the increased safety standards. When I was looking for a new car this year, it became a running joke that "This car has a 5-star crash rating." A large part is tougher DUI laws. A large part is seat belt laws. I'm not going to try to apply percentages to each. But the government looked at the morgues and said, "Hmmm....this is getting bad" and created laws that within a generation completely changed our car culture for the better.

I'm old enough to remember a time when no one wore seat belts. When I was five years old, my parents thought it was perfectly reasonable for me to sit on the arm rest in the front seat of our Chevy Malibu. It's a miracle I never became a hood ornament. I remember when mandatory seat belt laws starting passing. The same arguments were made. "It's a police state!!!" Now, it is an automatic response that when you get in a car, you put on a seat belt..

---------- Post added December-19th-2012 at 11:45 AM ----------

No one owns an "AK-47". People may own a gun that looks like an AK-47, but the only ones that own a fully functioning AK-47 are the ones that have federally issued machine gun licenses. But since you have been throwing out these nuggets over the past 70 pages, I'm not surprised to see it again.

I started posting on page 72. I've been out of pocket for a week.

[Koolblue13]

1. I don't want to turn this into a discussion of drug laws, buy you have to be clear. Portugal still has very serious penalties for selling and large scale production of drugs. It is legal to have and grow amounts of drugs that would be acceptable for personal use.

2. But don't changes in laws reflect societal changes and vice versa. For society to say this is a serious issue, essentially means in our society there are going to be changes in the law that reflect that.

The first point and I should probably let the drug analogy go, although it does fit. I've read a bit about what they are doing over there and it has absolutely changed from a societal view. They've stopped looking at drugs as a recreational hobby and started to view it as a sickness. Treating it as such and teaching kids honestly about it.

Second, I see both you and LKBs points and have to agree with you both. I guess laws do change with society and I didn't think about it like that.

Well, hopefully something like this will be enough to change a few things. We could use it. I still don't think America collectively, has it in them to admit they have an honest violence problem and there shouldn't be some many guns around (or violence on TV via movies and VGs).

[skinsfan_1215]

No one owns an "AK-47". People may own a gun that looks like an AK-47, but the only ones that own a fully functioning AK-47 are the ones that have federally issued machine gun licenses. But since you have been throwing out these nuggets over the past 70 pages, I'm not surprised to see it again.

Plenty of people own real semi-auto AK47s.. you can get them pretty cheap. Or could anyway pre-Obama reelection

A semi-automatic AK-47 fires the same round as a 30.06, the most popular hunting rifle.

Technically not true but close. Not trying to refute your overall point, but 7.62 isn't the same as 30-.06 to my knowledge. Closer to a .308. But yeah, it's a decent deer round.

It function the same way (semi-automatic). It just looks like the same gun used by Al-Qaeda and the Russians. This is what angers pr-gun folks when people start talking out of their 4th point of contact - it is just flowing bull****. It is adding nothing constructive and propels this discussion further into polarized corners.

Agreed

1) Ban high capacity magazines (over 8 rounds)
2) Lessen the charge in high powered rounds
3) Outlaw the collapsible stock
4) Outlaw flash suppressors
5) Close the gun show loophole
6) Standardize background checks
7) Enforce a waiting period
8) Limit purchases per year
9) Enact a police check to purchase large quantities of ammo
10) Toughen the penalties for committing a crime with a firearm
11) Start an education program in schools
12) Stop importing mass quantities of firearms (make it the buyers financial responsibility to own foreign manufactured firearms)
13) Make it illegal for the resell of a firearm unless you have a federally issued dealer license (you can make exceptions for gun shows, but regulate and track each purchase in a cleaner fashion)

I think a lot of the ideas you have here are good. I just don’t think that mandating any fundamental changes for the gun industry is anything that the NRA will give their (even halfhearted) blessing to. In order to make sustainable changes you need to get them on board. I’m 100% behind making it harder to acquire other than standard hunting guns though. ARs, handguns, anything with a high cap magazine, etc should have long(ish) waiting periods and intensive background checks.

Of course, none of these are going to help with anything if the illegal side of the house is unenforced. This requires border security to stop the illegal import of foreign firearms. The illegal resell of firearms.

Is the country ready to have a full scale domestic war on illegal guns?

Maybe redirect the war on drugs?

[Corcaigh]

People may own a gun that looks like an AK-47,

As part of the cultural issue that the USA seems to have is with glorification of weaponry and violence. Do you think having weapons that look like military assault rifles is a great idea?

Your other points I'm fully supportive of, except 11 dependent on the scope. Many Americans don't want to own or use a gun. Education and training could be a prerequisite for usage.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm just pointing out that the libertarian/conservative mantra that new laws can't work is bogus. It could be drugs. It could be motor vehicles. It could be trans-fat. Government can change behaviors through legislative action.

What typically does not work is broad-brush prohibition. Frankly, in a perfect world, I would be in favor of large-scale gun confiscations. I know that such a thing in the US is nearly impossible. Having said that, the idea that no laws could work is simply wrong.

Rachel Maddow had a litany of gun laws that we have passed since the Reagan Years. Some of them are widely-accepted now. I can't see anyone coming out to allow the wide-scale sale of armor-piercing bullets at this point any more than I can see a large-scale revolt against seat belt laws. There is always a brief moment of resistance followed by large-scale cultural acceptance. Unless Dick Cheney is involved. Dick Cheney would totally make it legal to own plastic handguns. (Seriously, he was one of four Congresscritters to vote against the ban of undetectable guns. Because he is pure evil).

[Koolblue13]

I'm not disagreeing at all.

[skinsfan_1215]

As part of the cultural issue that the USA seems to have is with glorification of weaponry and violence. Do you think having weapons that look like military assault rifles is a great idea?

I don’t think a glorification of violence is the reason people would want to own an assault rifle. There is a centuries old culture in this country of self-sufficiency, strength, and confidence that people can take care of themselves. The people that have been here the longest are the ones that had the grit and strength to make it on their own in a land that was completely unsettled and truly dangerous.

This has translated in a modern sense to not only people wanting to own guns, but people wanting to own guns that match the firepower of any other guns. The feeling would be “I will never encounter a situation that I am unprepared for.” This is the same for gun owners today as it was for frontier settlers in the 1700s.

[Popeman38]

ISame with DUI laws. American highways are safer than they have ever been. A large part of that is the increased safety standards. When I was looking for a new car this year, it became a running joke that "This car has a 5-star crash rating." A large part is tougher DUI laws. A large part is seat belt laws. I'm not going to try to apply percentages to each. But the government looked at the morgues and said, "Hmmm....this is getting bad" and created laws that within a generation completely changed our car culture for the better.

I'm old enough to remember a time when no one wore seat belts. When I was five years old, my parents thought it was perfectly reasonable for me to sit on the arm rest in the front seat of our Chevy Malibu. It's a miracle I never became a hood ornament. I remember when mandatory seat belt laws starting passing. The same arguments were made. "It's a police state!!!" Now, it is an automatic response that when you get in a car, you put on a seat belt..

We keep hearing this. None of these other things are Constitutionally protected. You want to start comparing restrictions on Constitutional rights, please show me a right that has more laws on the books to regulate than the 2nd. It isn't close.

We don't mandate that bloggers get mental health screenings before they are permitted to start a blog. No one is required to get mental health screening before they are permitted to vote. And I know that neither of those rights have the ability to "kill 20 kids", but the point stands. The SC has upheld that the 2nd guarantees private ownership of firearms for self defense. You can only restrict a right so much before you are infringing on that right.

[MattFancy]

We keep hearing this. None of these other things are Constitutionally protected. You want to start comparing restrictions on Constitutional rights, please show me a right that has more laws on the books to regulate than the 2nd. It isn't close.

We don't mandate that bloggers get mental health screenings before they are permitted to start a blog. No one is required to get mental health screening before they are permitted to vote. And I know that neither of those rights have the ability to "kill 20 kids", but the point stands. The SC has upheld that the 2nd guarantees private ownership of firearms for self defense. You can only restrict a right so much before you are infringing on that right.

From Thomas Jefferson:

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.”

Think this applies to gun laws?

[Popeman38]

As part of the cultural issue that the USA seems to have is with glorification of weaponry and violence. Do you think having weapons that look like military assault rifles is a great idea?

Your other points I'm fully supportive of, except 11 dependent on the scope. Many Americans don't want to own or use a gun. Education and training could be a prerequisite for usage.

I was trying to say an education program in school for kids on guns, the dangers they pose, and how to prevent accidental shootings. If kids were exposed to guns and how dangerous they are from a young age, I think it would help.

[Koolblue13]

Comparing a blog to an assault rifle

[Popeman38]

Plenty of people own real semi-auto AK47s.. you can get them pretty cheap. Or could anyway pre-Obama reelection

That is why I used the quotes. A real AK-47 is fully automatic. An AR-15 is not a real M-16. It is a civilian, semi-automatic version. It fires a .223 round. Other semi-automatic rifles fire the same round, and pack the same punch as an AR-15. That was my point. Semi-automatic firearms that look like military issue firearms doesn't do any more damage than common hunting rifles. The media does a very good job of highlighting how "dangerous" these assault weapons are. The soundbites work. There are plenty of posters in this thread that agreed with the media talking points until they were shown what bull**** they were.

Technically not true but close. Not trying to refute your overall point, but 7.62 isn't the same as 30-.06 to my knowledge. Closer to a .308. But yeah, it's a decent deer round.

30.06 is the same as 7.62:

The .30-06 Springfield cartridge (pronounced "thirty-aught-six") or 7.62×63mm in metric notation...

It is not the exact same cartridge, but it is a 7.62 round.

---------- Post added December-19th-2012 at 11:35 AM ----------

Comparing a blog to an assault rifle

Read. I never compared a blog to an assault rifle. And we can't even agree what an assault rifle is.

[Mad Mike]

“I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and Constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.” - Thomas Jefferson


Think this applies to gun laws?

I think that quote should be tattooed on Ron Pauls forehead.

But to answer your question, yes it does and yes it already has.

[skinsfan_1215]

30.06 is the same as 7.62:It is not the exact same cartridge, but it is a 7.62 round.[COLOR="Gold"]

How about that, was unaware. You learn something every day I suppose.

[Pride]

Here's a solution, how about we not sell guns to known crazy people so we don't have to act all shocked that a crazy person killed a bunch of children with a gun that was sold to him.. See how that works?