WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

[stevemcqueen1]

No offense, but non residents "preaching" about what needs to be done tends to piss off Americans. You don't get a license to own a gun. See, we have issues with licensing of a right (see the uproar over requiring a valid ID to vote).

This is a clear example of the kind of pro-gun American thinking foreigners find incomprehensible.

It doesn't even compute for them that so many Americans actually believe their right to own a bunch of grown up toys capable of effortless mass murder is inviolable.

Also your metaphor about voter ID is a typical example of right winger false equivalency.

[CTskins]

No offense, but non residents "preaching" about what needs to be done tends to piss off Americans. You don't get a license to own a gun. See, we have issues with licensing of a right (see the uproar over requiring a valid ID to vote).

That's not the reason there was an uproar, but that is a separate discussion.

[Popeman38]

This is a clear example of the kind of pro-gun American thinking foreigners find incomprehensible.

It doesn't even compute for them that so many Americans actually believe their right to own a bunch of grown up toys capable of effortless mass murder is inviolable.

Also your metaphor about voter ID is a typical example of right winger false equivalency.

Do you want to offer solutions, or continue to just drive by? If you read my posts, I have clearly outlined areas I support for gun control.

[Mad Mike]

In my opinion, an assault weapons ban would have some positive effect, even if the effect is relatively small, and with no real downside. Your opinion is that it will have zero effect, but the only downside you identify is the energy that people are wasting talking about it. But if you (and other gun proponents) didn't waste energy opposing it, it could actually be passed with very little effort or time. The bill is basically already written.

What are the alternative laws that you think lawmakers should instead be spending their energy on?

You specifically identified weapons that "look" military. You went to great lengths to point out why military looking weapons are bad. That was what I responded to. And if that's your idea of an assault weapons ban, you are too ill informed to even be commenting.

And I will say it again... BASIC UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. While we are protecting those kids from killers lets make sure they have a fair shot in life by providing basic health care to those who need it most and get everyone into a system where we can track disease and identify and manage mentally ill people, from killers to predators who pose the greatest risk to society. That way a simple background check will be more effective and dangerous situations like a mother teaching her mentally ill child to shoot guns can be avoided or corrected

And FWIW.... a buddy just texted me as I was writing, that he bought one of the last (high end) ARs from a local gun store. By the time any ban of new sales can take effect there will probably be an extra half million ARs sold. They are not going away no matter how good or bad they might be. The only thing we can do is keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill.

[GibbsFactor]

AR style weapons and larger magazines are flying off the shelves nationwide. Prices have ballooned on Ebay and other sites online.

ETA: The State of Virginia is reporting record breaking numbers of background checks.

[alexey]

AR style weapons and larger magazines are flying off the shelves nationwide. Prices have ballooned on Ebay and other sites online.

ETA: The State of Virginia is reporting record breaking numbers of background checks.

Looks like mass murders are good for business

[Special K]

Except for the fact that she was living with a dangerously mentally ill person. (Granted, that is not currently a "legal" reason to deny ownership, but it should be).

I very much agree with this. I wonder, however, how this can be legally enacted.

The only thing I can think of is implementing a thorough background check process (interviewing friends, family members, coworkers, etc.) like the kind they do on those of us seeking security clearance from the federal government. I mean, that investigator grilled me, my travel history, my credit report, everything just for me to obtain security clearance for my program

Obviously that is likely cost-prohibitive, but it would enable investigators to determine if there are unstable and threatening individuals living with or in the circle of the gun buyer...

[DjTj]

You specifically identified weapons that "look" military. You went to great lengths to point out why military looking weapons are bad. That was what I responded to. And if that's your idea of an assault weapons ban, you are too ill informed to even be commenting.

I only reduced it to weapons looking military because that was the reductio ad absurdum you were attempting to posit. You were the one who originally characterization the assault weapons ban as solely cosmetic, not me.

Earlier in the thread, I argued that the limit on magazine size, which is part of the assault weapons ban, would be a tangible change in the law that could make a real difference. The cosmetic regulations may or may not make a real difference (and "cosmetic" accessories like a flash suppressor may have made a real difference in a case like the DC sniper), but I still am waiting for anyone to identify a downside to these regulations.

And I will say it again... BASIC UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. While we are protecting those kids from killers lets make sure they have a fair shot in life by providing basic health care to those who need it most and get everyone into a system where we can track disease and identify and manage mentally ill people, from killers to predators who pose the greatest risk to society. That way a simple background check will be more effective and dangerous situations like a mother teaching her mentally ill child to shoot guns can be avoided or corrected

I agree that basic universal health care is a necessary and noble legislative goal. But the gun control debate is not realistically going to take any legislator's time away from health care issues. Your argument about limited legislative resources is as tenuous as any argument about cosmetic features. We're building up a universal health care system, and we will likely get a boost to mental health coverage as a result of the current debate. It's not really an either/or situation with gun control and mental health.

And we still need to make the connection between gun control and health records. Currently, background checks for guns are not really linked to health records in any systematic way. The FBI built a system designed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, not to mentally profile every gun owner. Building the kind of database you are talking about would take years, and would run into many civil liberties challenges. The easiest way to implement it in the context of gun control might be to simply require every gun owner to undergo a psychiatric evaluation every few years. Would you agree to that?

And FWIW.... a buddy just texted me as I was writing, that he bought one of the last (high end) ARs from a local gun store. By the time any ban of new sales can take effect there will probably be an extra half million ARs sold. They are not going away no matter how good or bad they might be. The only thing we can do is keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill.

How many guns will be sold before we can implement universal health care and a national database of mental illness? Are you willing to wait that long before we do something?

Are there any gun control measures that you would support in the meantime while we are waiting to revamp the mental health system nationwide?

[Mad Mike]

One other thing....

By my unofficial, seat of the pants count, about 98% of the people on this board are against the patriot act because of sometimes real, and often times imagined infringements on personal rights. They fight the patriot act which is designed to prevent a re-occourance of 9/11 when 3000 people were killed. But suddenly the constitution and personal freedoms are fair game because of the death of 20 children. I'm not making light of those children's death. I'm remembering the children who died on 9/11 and the ones murdered, poisoned and with acid thrown in their face by evil people like the Taliban for daring to get an education. And I'm wondering why the government should be allowed to take guns away from law abiding citizens but they cant listen to a phone call from a terrorist in another country to a person in the US.

[Jumbo]

Gun Control works! Ask these guys...................Idi Amin, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot...Hitler........Mao Tse Tung, Qaddafi, Kim Jong, and my personal hero Fidel Castro.....

Something I learned from zoony, is in a matter where stupid and useless is already well-represented (on any side), it's good to step in and tell a poster who drops by with an "offering" like this to not post again in this thread. So you are told.

[DaGoonie55]

Are there any gun control measures that you would support in the meantime while we are waiting to revamp the mental health system nationwide?

Ban silencers, flash suppressors, hi cap mags, the selling of thousands of rounds at a time (per purchase), bayonettes, but not collapsable buttstocks. I have short arms (think T-rex) when it comes to shooting, I need that flexibility. It's just terrible that the actions of the few have such backlashes on the many. But in order to eliminate these tragedies, as well as many others, we need to take a first step. Health care reform and structuring a working regulation plan will be the heavy hitters when it comes to catastrophe mitigation, but will also take the longest to get squared away. We should also invest, heavily, into ourselves. Instead of sending money to other countries, we should send it to downtown (name a random city that has a bad neighborhood) and try to promote positive things. Society will heal and get better. Then I can buy that AR-15 chambered 7.62 and not be glared at. I'll just be a collector - not a pundit for massacres.

[Mad Mike]

Are there any gun control measures that you would support in the meantime while we are waiting to revamp the mental health system nationwide?

Sure. Improved background checks. Laws to ensure guns are stored safely away from children and the mentally ill. And I would even support some form of "middle" classification for ARs and other similar weapons with higher standards than handguns and other common weapons and special license weapons like full auto/machine guns. Limits on magazine capacity do nothing. A person can change mags in about 2 seconds. All a killer needs to do is carry more mags. ANd that's not counting the hi cap mags that are out there now and are not going to go away.

[alexey]

...And I'm wondering why the government should be allowed to take guns away from law abiding citizens but they cant listen to a phone call from a terrorist in another country to a person in the US.

One reason could be the difference in potential government abuse of power. People may judge a possibility of government abusing the "spy on citizens" power to be much higher than the possibility of government abusing the "law enforcement has better guns" power.

[Mad Mike]

Ban silencers, flash suppressors, hi cap mags, the selling of thousands of rounds at a time (per purchase), bayonettes, but not collapsable buttstocks. I have short arms (think T-rex) when it comes to shooting, I need that flexibility. It's just terrible that the actions of the few have such backlashes on the many. But in order to eliminate these tragedies, as well as many others, we need to take a first step. Health care reform and structuring a working regulation plan will be the heavy hitters when it comes to catastrophe mitigation, but will also take the longest to get squared away. We should also invest, heavily, into ourselves. Instead of sending money to other countries, we should send it to downtown (name a random city that has a bad neighborhood) and try to promote positive things. Society will heal and get better. Then I can buy that AR-15 chambered 7.62 and not be glared at. I'll just be a collector - not a pundit for massacres.

OK so you would ban things that have never been used in mass killings and already require extensive licensing (suppressors), and things that will have no effect (hi cap mags), but collapsible butt stocks are OK because you like them?

I'm not trying to slam you too hard because you do raise some good points, but you seem to have been caught up in the "do anything even if it does nothing" mentality.

[MattFancy]

Sure. Improved background checks. Laws to ensure guns are stored safely away from children and the mentally ill. And I would even support some form of "middle" classification for ARs and other similar weapons with higher standards than handguns and other common weapons and special license weapons like full auto/machine guns. Limits on magazine capacity do nothing. A person can change mags in about 2 seconds. All a killer needs to do is carry more mags. ANd that's not counting the hi cap mags that are out there now and are not going to go away.

I think that's a good list. You seem to be one of the few level-headed gun guys in this thread.