The Hobbit BOOK THREAD

[Forehead]

The orc/goblin thing is only confusing to those not paying attention. Nerds like me who have read the books 15 times don't have these problems.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

The orc/goblin thing is only confusing to those not paying attention. Nerds like me who have read the books 15 times don't have these problems.

Haha. I don't remember why, but I had thought it had something to do with a hierarchy. For some reason I thought it had to do with the Uruk-hai (how the hell do you spell them?) and progressed down to orcs and goblins from there.

But, as usual, leave it to Tolkien to clear things up for us before you even dive into the text. He thought of everything

[Elessar78]

I'm questioning consistency. Trolls in the LOTR didn't say anything. Trolls, so far in the movie, talk a lot. What gives?

[Forehead]

Different types of trolls? I mean, the Uruk-Hai were a breed of super orcs, but they're still orcs, or goblins. Cave Trolls in lord of the rings don't talk (I don't remember cave trolls in the books, to be honest) but perhaps forest/mountain trolls do. I haven't seen the movie yet, do the trolls in the Hobbit movie look the same?

[Elessar78]

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.



Really geeky but I can't help but notice the similarities between stuff in The Hobbit and stuff in Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). I don't have the whole history of the word but George RR Martin uses the term "Warg" just like JRRT. Also there are shape shifters in The Hobbit and in SoIF. Terms like The Eyrie. Not that these terms aren't in the lexicon but in a similar genre . . .

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

[FanboyOf91]

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.



(deleted spoilers)

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

Both draw heavily upon medieval terminology, though Tolkien likes to draw from Norse and Saxon (he was a major Beowulf scholar), while Martin prefers the more dirtier parts of feudal society (Machiavelli could read his books and nod in approval).

[Elessar78]

I'm almost through my re-read of the book. I forgot about Smaug's demise, kinda disappointed.

[Ancalagon the Black]

It's tempting to believe that Tolkien had created Middle Earth (and all of Arda) fully before writing any of his stories down. But the truth is that The Hobbit was told - and written - well before he had begun fleshing out most of the mythology. Therefore, there are quite a few inconsistencies and simplifications in the book that occasionally conflict with later works.

Jackson had to retrofit a lot of The Lord of the Rings into The Hobbit (note how the world gets weird when Bilbo puts on the Ring, and Gollum's multiple personality). He also pulled in a lot of the other works, such as "The Quest of Erebor" (from Unfinished Tales), in which the White Council and Gandalf's concerns that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is actually Sauron both appear.

In The Hobbit, Azog was an incredibly minor character who had already been killed. The Goblin King was the chief antagonist in the Misty Mountains. Orcs and Goblins were the same thing...kind of.

Yes, I'm a Tolkien geek. I've had that username you see there since I joined this site.

[drtdrums]

Potential Game of Thrones spoiler.



Really geeky but I can't help but notice the similarities between stuff in The Hobbit and stuff in Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones). I don't have the whole history of the word but George RR Martin uses the term "Warg" just like JRRT. Also there are shape shifters in The Hobbit and in SoIF. Terms like The Eyrie. Not that these terms aren't in the lexicon but in a similar genre . . .

Is there a link between the two authors? Are there homages to JRRT in SoIF?

I suspect Martin is "inspired" by both Robin Hobb and Tolkien. There have been moments in ASoIF that I had to just shake my head and pray that certain similarities between Martin and Hobb's Farseer/Tawny trilogies were just coincidence.

[Elessar78]

Did Gandalf have relations with Belladonna Took? Is he Bilbo's dad?

[FanboyOf91]

Did Gandalf have relations with Belladonna Took? Is he Bilbo's dad?

**** no!

[AsburySkinsFan]

Ok, I'm reading the Hobbit again for the first time in 20+ years, but I wanted to post this regarding the orc/goblin debate as I believe this shows that Tolkien does is not using the term synonymously.

[stevemcqueen1]

Well a few things. Goblins and Orcs were the same thing in Tolkien's writing...I believe he used goblin early and switched to orc in later literature.

When determining whether to go through the forest, Gandalf says (this is in the book) something about not being able to go through the lands of the Necromancer to the South. I always assumed he was referring to Sauron.

As for the Goblin King...it's been awhile since I read the book, but I'm fairly certain he was never mentioned as having one arm in the book.

I believe everything you stated is correct.

I'm rereading the hobbit and I noticed he uses goblins interchangeably with orcs. I don't remember him using the word orc at all in the book actually but I could be wrong. Point being goblins = orcs, although there are lots of different clans and breeds of orcs.

You're also right about the Necromancer being his name for Sauron in The Hobbit.

And yes, there was no mention of Goblin King being one armed in the book. Another poster seemed to have it right, the Goblin king was a great big fat headed Goblin who gets his head cut off by Gandalf or Thorin in the scene where Gandalf rescues Bilbo and the dwarves from the Goblins when they're captured in the mountain caves.

---------- Post added January-14th-2013 at 05:02 PM ----------

I'm questioning consistency. Trolls in the LOTR didn't say anything. Trolls, so far in the movie, talk a lot. What gives?

The trolls in the hobbit talked. And presumably wore clothes because Bilbo attempts to pick their pockets. In the book he gives them this somewhat anachronistic, slangy and ignorant sounding English bully boy style of speaking that would have been comic to children reading the book in his day. It's kind of the same style of dialogue Peter Jackson gave the Orcs in Two Towers, particularly the scenes where they are taking the Hobbits to Isengard.

As someone else pointed out, the hobbit was a children's book and predates the rest of his work so it occasionally breaks canon and oversimplifies things. I still love it. I think it's actually his most charming and entertaining work.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I believe everything you stated is correct.

I'm rereading the hobbit and I noticed he uses goblins interchangeably with orcs. I don't remember him using the word orc at all in the book actually but I could be wrong. Point being goblins = orcs, although there are lots of different clans and breeds of orcs.

look at the post directly above yours.

[rick1796]

My Tolkien nerdom will trump all of yours :P
First, Goblin and Orch seem interchanable but aren't quite. Goblin is a race, Orc is a breed i.e. all orcs are goblins, but not all goblins are orcs. Like dogs vs. staffordshire terriers. Also note that being the Goblin King didn't actually mean he was king of all Goblin's much like many a king has claimed to be king of man and none of them have ruled over all men. (no mortal king anayway)
Second, none of the material used in the Hobbit is from the Unifinshed Tales or the Silmarillion or any other work of tolkiens other than the LOTR trilogy and the hobbit AND their appendicies. The appenicies things is big becasue that is where a lot of the info that is not in the narritive come from. Like Rhadagast and the other Istari (wizards) This is becasue The filmers do not have rights to use anything from any other source.
Third, Azog (the one armed pale orc) Was the ork that killed Thror (Thorin's grand pappy). in the novels he was killed years afterward by Dain son of Nain who became king of the iron hills. It is Azog's son Bolg who in the novels would lead his orc band in the Battle of five armies. They basically just deleted the transition to Bolg to make it simpler and keep direct lines of interaction.