Rob Jackson's Worth

[braindx]

If Rob Jackson signs with someone else to be a start, what would the Skins receive as a compensator pick? Third Round?

Compensatory selections are determined by how many free agents walk and sign contracts to other teams vs those that sign with your team. The amount of the contract matters as well.

The reason why teams like Green Bay, Giants, Pats, etc keep getting compensatory selections is because they can't resign all of their players who are good and they go to other teams, and they rarely sign a lot of big name free agents. So they get compensatory selections.

It's unlikely we will get compensatory selections until we start having players that we can't resign because of money and they go sign big contracts with other teams.

[DC9]

But for some reason I had a man crush on Jackson ever since we drafted
him and always use him in older maddens after his rookie season haha.

But seriously after looking at his bios his rookie season the guy was too
much of a monster in weight and muscle that it was no way in my mind
we couldn't find a spot for this guy on defense. But was thrilled when we
Kept him on the roster even though he wasn't producing much. But we almost
Let him walk fortunately I think no one signed him.

So yes I've been watching him since day 1 hoping we got a steal in the draft
In the later round because that was unknown around here for sometime after
The Gibbs era.

Not sure what you mean here entirely, but he was drafted in 2008 in the 7th round... lol, the ONLY player left on the team from that draft in memory serves.

---------- Post added December-31st-2012 at 06:53 PM ----------

Please be more specific. You legitimately made two or three blanket statements and I don't know how to rebut it without any examples.

what? Seriously, what are you asking? Be more specific about what you want me to be more specific about.

[NewCliche21]

Please be more specific. You legitimately made two or three blanket statements and I don't know how to rebut it without any examples.

I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Orakpo doesn't make plays that change games.

Jackson does.

Orakpo is a beast, but Jackson just seems to be in the right place at the right time. A lot.

[MartinC]

. It's hard to transistion from college to a 3-4 lb which is what they are asking him to do.

We get this kind of comment a lot. A big majority of NFL OLB in a 3-4 defense were 4-3 DEs in College - it's a transition for sure but it's a very common one.

I'd like us to try to keep Jackson, he has been excellent, but he is going to get offers of starter money and roles which it's going to be hard for us to match. Orakpo is just a better pass rusher from that OLB spot (assuming he is fully healthy) and the primary role of that OLB in our 3-4 is pass rush.

---------- Post added December-31st-2012 at 08:08 PM ----------

I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Orakpo doesn't make plays that change games.

Jackson does.

Orakpo is a beast, but Jackson just seems to be in the right place at the right time. A lot.

But if you can only keep one which would you keep, Orakpo or Jackson? As much as I agree with you about Jackson making plays I'd have to keep Orakpo for his superior pass rush ability.

[DC9]

But if you can only keep one which would you keep, Orakpo or Jackson? As much as I agree with you about Jackson making plays I'd have to keep Orakpo for his superior pass rush ability.

I think this goes into the other thread... but I'll go ahead real quick on this.

Facets of Linebacker Play:

Tackling: Jackson
Run game: Jackson
Pass game: Jackson
Pass rush: Orakpo?

Like I said... Orakpo's best season he had what? 10 sacks? And that was with a pretty decent front seven and a HUGE game against arguably the worst #1 pick of all time and his backup that inflated those numbers.
Orakpo does little else BUT rush the passer and still normally gets only 9 sacks a season.
Jackson rushes the passer maybe 25% of the time and has 4.5 sacks?

Couple that with what else he brings and to me it's Jackson hands down.

[RWJ]

I think this goes into the other thread... but I'll go ahead real quick on this.

Facets of Linebacker Play:

Tackling: Jackson
Run game: Jackson
Pass game: Jackson
Pass rush: Orakpo?

Like I said... Orakpo's best season he had what? 10 sacks? And that was with a pretty decent front seven and a HUGE game against arguably the worst #1 pick of all time and his backup that inflated those numbers.
Orakpo does little else BUT rush the passer and still normally gets only 9 sacks a season.
Jackson rushes the passer maybe 25% of the time and has 4.5 sacks?

Couple that with what else he brings and to me it's Jackson hands down.

Hoping that Shanahan sees it this way. Yes, we do need Jackson back and if our coaching staff doesn't see that they are blind.

[MartinC]

Hoping that Shanahan sees it this way. Yes, we do need Jackson back and if our coaching staff doesn't see that they are blind.

I'm sure they would love him back and will make him a good offer and have him on the field quite a bit - but I don't think they would offer him a starting job over Orakpo and with the salary cap hit and our other needs we can't afford to pay 3 starting OLB salaries.

[RWJ]

I'm sure they would love him back and will make him a good offer and have him on the field quite a bit - but I don't think they would offer him a starting job over Orakpo and with the salary cap hit and our other needs we can't afford to pay 3 starting OLB salaries.

If we can trade him I say we do it. If we can't we need to cut our losses and re-sign Jackson. Orakpo has torn his pectoral muscle twice now. His best years are behind him, IMO due to this reoccuring injury.

[HeluCopter29]

I'm open to trading Orakpo. But I'm not sure I would.

[moondog]

Wont hear anything but what they want?

I give you the number 1 coverage OLB in the league. A play maker at Linebacker who forces fumbles, recovers fumbles, and gets interceptions at KEY POINTS IN THE GAME against MULTIPLE WINNING TEAMS. A better pure tackler and run stopper. And a quickly improving pass rusher with 4.5 sacks... and keep in mind he doesn't rush the passer nearly as much as Orakpo would. Maybe 25% as much.

You give me 4 sacks vs the Raiders.

You mad?

Mad? No, I'm not. A little frustrated that this thread has simply become an extension/duplicate of the "Does Jackson Make Orakpo Expendable" thread. Also a little frustrated that you have brought up the exact questions you have had answered by me in that thread yet apparently never read even though you asked the questions.

Best coverage OLB in the league? Please. That is as subjective as it gets and you are basing it off of a statistical analysis done by some site so that you can try and call it objective. The fact is, as I've already stated, Jackson is never asked to do more than simply play zone - either to sidestep out to the flats or disguise as a blitzer and fall back into a shallow middle zone. I will absolutely give credit where it's due in that he hung on to the ball and was in the right place, but I don't consider him to be anywhere near the best coverage OLB in the league because Quarterbacks have gotten pressured and threw the ball right into his waiting arms because they never saw him. You say he doesn't rush the passer nearly as much as Orakpo but you don't even consider the opposite: Orakpo doesn't drop into coverage nearly as much as Jackson. It's because the coaches play to their strengths. Jackson is not a very good pass rusher and it is more beneficial to drop him into coverage and blitz someone else whereas Orakpo is our best pass rusher so we almost always rush him, many times from different spots to free up someone like Bowen or Kerrigan.

Again - a better tackler and run stopper. I have no idea where you are getting those from other than just being biased towards Jackson and pulling it out of your ass. Did you watch Jackson get embarrassed ALL DAY against Philly in the run game. Must have missed that one eh? Neither player misses tackles very often and both are very stout in the run game man. Jackson's build may be a little wider so you could argue he takes up more space but Rak is the stronger player and often runs his blocker back into the runner or plays very disciplined and sets the edge to force the runner back toward the middle. Many posters likely see him running outside a RB as being a poor tackler or something rather than as the OLB it is his job in the scheme to keep the RB contained and funnel him back to Riley/Fletcher. Rak is very disciplined in the run game and does an outstanding job of setting the edge. Again, no idea where you are getting the "better run stopper/tackler" theory from.

At key points against winning teams? You claim that "I" give you the Raiders. Thank you for ONCE AGAIN confirming my point that you hear nothing that's been said to respond to you as I have said all of this before and have NEVER called the Raiders game to attention to contend your points. In fact, I explicitly stated in the other thread that the Raiders game was not a game I would ever point out in favor of Orakpo specifically because a 4 sack game for anyone is such an aberration against a poor team.

You pay more attention to Jackson and give him more favor about this whole "big plays" thing because he's done it during a winning season that we are all excited about and in a "what have you done for me lately" league, people tend to forget very quickly about guys that aren't on the field if those that are play well. I won't even bring up the game ending holding against Dallas in a game in which he also drew several other important holding penalties. I listed several games from last year where Orakpo played great and had huge plays:

1) Last year in our second game against the Giants, Orakpo had a big sack against Eli toward the end of the game to help close it out. Not only did he have a sack of his own, but on 4th & Goal with the Giants threatening to score late in the game (think that qualifies as a key point right?) Rak blew by his blocker, Eli saw him and ran straight into Kerrigan's waiting arms. Rak gets little credit on the stat sheet but anyone who watched the game knew he was breathing down Eli's neck the whole game and without him Kerrigan doesn't get that sack. Let alone the fact that Kerrigan forced a fumble and guess who recovered it and was on his way to a TD before they blew the play dead and we didn't challenge because it was a turnover on downs anyway - oh yeah, that was Rak.

2) Forget about Orakpo's big sack near the goalline that would have resulted in TD fumble recovery if Andre Carter didn't have his hands wrapped with 400 lbs of tape?

3) Again last year, final game of the year against the Eagles, Rak sacked Vick twice in the FIRST HALF and was likely on his way to a double digit sack season with one more in the second half. On his second sack, RIGHT before the half, in Eagles territory, he forces a fumble that we recovered to get some points before half. I'd say that qualifies as a big play at a key point in the game.

These are all three huge plays that either resulted in points for us or directly resulted in keeping points off the board from other teams. And they are not the only examples. The fact is, no one was paying attention because the season was already over and we were cellar dwellers again. But that doesn't take away from his play.

You want more sacks and fumbles. Rak hurt himself on a sack/fumble against the Rams just this year. You thinking he doesn't have big plays that have big impacts on the game is just ignorant or forgetful on your part. Jackson has 4.5 sacks in 14 starts this year - you might as well say 15 because Rak got hurt right at the beginning of the Rams game. That's a very poor number for a 3-4 OLB. The picks are big and I give him credit. But Rak had more forced fumbles, recoveries, and sacks than Jackson just last year. The only area Jackson has shown anything more is interceptions and that has nothing to do with him being some great coverage guy. He dropped back into his zone and the QB's threw the ball right into his arms. Remember our safety Chris Horton - everyone thought he was a stud coverage guy and a great safety too, someone that would have been drafted in the 1st round if the draft were done over...nope, turns out the guy was just in the right place at the right time which is often the case with interceptions...see Richard Crawford's pick last night.

I'm not bashing Jackson. He's a solid player and I'm very thankful we have depth in him. I hope we can retain him and get him on the field some next year with Rak and Kerrigan. But you're on some fairy tale thinking he's some great stud that's better than Orakpo or the best coverage OLB in the league.

Hopefully this time you'll actually read a response and listen, not just say something lame about a Raiders game 3+ years ago or ignore the fact that much like you say Orakpo disappears, Jackson completely disappeared against the Eagles except to get shredded and juked out of his shoes in the run game, then completely disappeared all day yesterday, was completely a non factor except to pick off a pass that was again just tossed up for grabs right to him. Aside from that, his only stat yesterday was one assisted tackle. So as not to play the stat game because it often lies, watching the game, Jackson had very little impact and was pretty invisible out there yesterday aside from the pick.

Again, I say this not to bash Jackson, who I like, but to give comparison and argument against what you're saying.

[kiingspadee]

can we stop trying to trade away anyone that has potential?

[DC9]

Mad? No, I'm not. A little frustrated that this thread has simply become an extension/duplicate of the "Does Jackson Make Orakpo Expendable" thread. Also a little frustrated that you have brought up the exact questions you have had answered by me in that thread yet apparently never read even though you asked the questions.

I didn't start that... the other side did.

Best coverage OLB in the league? Please. That is as subjective as it gets and you are basing it off of a statistical analysis done by some site so that you can try and call it objective. The fact is, as I've already stated, Jackson is never asked to do more than simply play zone - either to sidestep out to the flats or disguise as a blitzer and fall back into a shallow middle zone.

You realize he was in man to man vs Murray right?

You say he doesn't rush the passer nearly as much as Orakpo but you don't even consider the opposite: Orakpo doesn't drop into coverage nearly as much as Jackson.

Orakpo had a chance to ice the Saints game... he dropped a pass that hit him right between the 9 and the 8. He's also been burned... a lot. He also misses tackles... a lot.

Orakpo is our best pass rusher so we almost always rush him, many times from different spots to free up someone like Bowen or Kerrigan.

9 sacks a year. That's what he's gonna give you. You want 9 sacks or do you want 4 picks and 5 game changing turnovers with 4.5 sacks?

At key points against winning teams? You claim that "I" give you the Raiders. Thank you for ONCE AGAIN confirming my point that you hear nothing that's been said to respond to you as I have said all of this before and have NEVER called the Raiders game to attention to contend your points. In fact, I explicitly stated in the other thread that the Raiders game was not a game I would ever point out in favor of Orakpo specifically because a 4 sack game for anyone is such an aberration against a poor team.

You haven't said anything. I'm just taking away the sack argument from you

I won't even bring up the game ending holding against Dallas in a game in which he also drew several other important holding penalties. I listed several games from last year where Orakpo played great and had huge plays:

That would be a good example of Orakpo changing the game.

Last year in our second game against the Giants, Orakpo had a big sack against Eli toward the end of the game to help close it out.

We were up by 14.

Forget about Orakpo's big sack near the goalline that would have resulted in TD fumble recovery if Andre Carter didn't have his hands wrapped with 400 lbs of tape?

Yes, I did. When was this?

Again last year, final game of the year against the Eagles, Rak sacked Vick twice in the FIRST HALF and was likely on his way to a double digit sack season with one more in the second half. On his second sack, RIGHT before the half, in Eagles territory, he forces a fumble that we recovered to get some points before half. I'd say that qualifies as a big play at a key point in the game.

There was an awful lot riding on that game, too. What? 6 wins?

The playoffs have been on the line all year... 7 wins in a row, Rob Jackson has made the decisive defensive play in almost all of them. ALL OF THEM.

Sacks... sack fumbles... interceptions. When we are in tight games. When we are losing. When we need a turnover, he comes through.

Let me ask you, when Jackson got the pick last night... did you think "YES! But damn, I wish he didn't get it and someone else did because now DC9 is gonna be so hard to deal and I hate him." Be honest. I'm betting someone out there did.

[SAli457180]

We have to keep Rob Jackson. We don't have enough talent on the defensive side of the ball to let players like Rob walk out.

I'm confident we'll hold onto him though, he's proven to be a huge asset to this team. We need him, Kerrigan AND Orakpo next season.

Exactly. They need the talent that each of those guys provide. I'm confident that this FO won't let Jackson get away. They know what they have right now and won't let it get away, unlike the previous regime.

[DC9]

You want more sacks and fumbles. Rak hurt himself on a sack/fumble against the Rams just this year. You thinking he doesn't have big plays that have big impacts on the game is just ignorant or forgetful on your part.

The examples you gave me are over a career. A career of starting and you gave me three?

I have five and Jackson has started 14 games. Five DECISIVE DEFENSIVE PLAYS.

Jackson has 4.5 sacks in 14 starts this year - you might as well say 15 because Rak got hurt right at the beginning of the Rams game. That's a very poor number for a 3-4 OLB.

Like I said... he barely blitzes. But when he does he is effective. He's been on the sideline for three years... you think he may need some time to get into game shape and nock the rust off?

The picks are big and I give him credit. But Rak had more forced fumbles, recoveries, and sacks than Jackson just last year. The only area Jackson has shown anything more is interceptions and that has nothing to do with him being some great coverage guy. He dropped back into his zone and the QB's threw the ball right into his arms.

Right into his arms?

Two of his picks were diving picks and one of them he had to jump like three feet into the air for it. You are starting to make stuff up to help you feel better now, brother. Not appealing.

I'm not bashing Jackson.

Actually... that's exactly what you are doing.

He's a solid player and I'm very thankful we have depth in him. I hope we can retain him and get him on the field some next year with Rak and Kerrigan. But you're on some fairy tale thinking he's some great stud that's better than Orakpo or the best coverage OLB in the league.

That's a fact. He's the number 1 OLB in coverage. Check the tweet from LL. Or, maybe he's just a hater too, mate.

Jackson completely disappeared against the Eagles except to get shredded and juked out of his shoes in the run game, then completely disappeared all day yesterday, was completely a non factor except to pick off a pass that was again just tossed up for grabs right to him.

Wow... wow... you are mad. Juked out of his shoes? Orakpo has never missed a tackle? He's never been juked? He's never been blocked? He's never been shut down?

I forgot... he get's 150 tackles and 40 sacks every year...

I had no idea you were really mad about this, dude. I thought we were just having a friendly conversation about football but you are legitimately mad.

[thesubmittedone]

Ugh, now some of us are trying to downplay Rob's play. Why can't we help ourselves?

I agree with those who are stating what Rob Jackson brings to the table. He's been awesome for us and is a play maker. What I don't agree with is why that has anything to do with Orakpo?

To me, one of the reasons Rob Jackson has been a play maker for us is because our scheme has changed quite a bit since the bye week and we're rotating guys like never before in the secondary and linebacker corps. But that's just one reason and it doesn't take anything away from Rob. Furthermore, our scheme has basically done little in terms of exotic blitzing while Orakpo was in there. We played a base 3-4 with cover 3 shell virtually every down while Orakpo was starting. That right there makes it unfair to compare the two.

Can anyone honestly answer how Orakpo would be doing with some of the looks we're giving right now? I think anyone who attempts to do so would be speculating in a manner inconsistent with sincere honesty.

Before, Orakpo was the only guy at that position virtually every down and teams knew they had to double team him since he was the biggest pass rushing threat. Furthermore, we didn't utilize him ourselves for much else on passing downs other than rushing, but we all saw he had become dominant against the run as well last season. I've noticed that aspect of Orakpo's play has been downplayed as if he can only pass rush. I do think Rob is better in coverage, but why is that a knock on Orakpo? Going into this season, Orakpo was talking a ton about how he wanted to improve his coverage skills. Unfortunately, we never got to see that develop this year.

That being said, Orakpo generated double teams every down and we all see what his loss has done to Kerrigan. When Orakpo wasn't double teamed, he either gets a sack or forces the QB to move within the pocket and either make an uncomfortable throw or allow someone else to sack him. And that's with teams knowing exactly what type of defense we're running for the most part.

So why is that being downplayed here? To me, Orakpo is a big piece to our defense. That is NOT to say Rob Jackson isn't as well. He's proven that he is just as important now. Maybe that part is what is debatable, but I don't think so. I really hope we find a way to keep them both because the way we are rotating guys right now has been awesome. If anything, the ones who should lose a little bit of playing time by keeping both Rob and Orakpo is Alexander and Kerrigan. Alexander just moves back to backing up the ILB position and Kerrigan doesn't need to play every single defensive snap (though I wouldn't diminish his playing time any more than 10%). A rotation throughout the entire game of Rob, Kerrigan and Orakpo would be deadly. We'd be crazy to let that go if the cap is not an issue. It may be, though. Thanks Mara.

I think the biggest two questions our defensive coaches have to answer are:

1) On obvious passing downs, who's the more deadly pass rushing combination? Orakpo/Jackson or Orakpo/Kerrigan?

2) On downs where we want to disguise things more, who brings the most ability overall to cover and/or pass rush so teams don't know what's going to happen? Orakpo/Jackson, Orakpo/Kerrigan or Jackson/Kerrigan?