Report: 2 shot at Calif. high school; shooter detained

[DjTj]

When you show me some statistics that indicate armed professionals are likely to shoot the people they are assigned to protect we can continue this. I'm not going to try to debate wild theories that have no basis in fact.

I am not concerned about a professional security guard shooting students. I think it is reasonable to have armed security guards in schools (although I question the cost-effectiveness of having a full-time guard in every elementary school in the country).

I am concerned with a teacher's gun being taken by a student or fired accidentally. Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

[MattFancy]

Seriously?

In an interview, Mr. Ward defended criticism that the group chose a date two days before Martin Luther King Day since the civil rights leader was shot and killed.

Mr. Ward said that the goal of the appreciation day was to “remind members of Congress about how we feel about our Second Amendment. He added. “If African-Americans had been given the right to bear and keep arms from Day 1, perhaps slavery might not have been a chapter in our history.”

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...er=rss&emc=rss

[Mad Mike]

How likely is it that an elementary student is going to be killed with a gun in a manner that would have been prevented with an arm guard in an elementary school?

WTF? Are we going to twist this hypothetical topic over and over until you find an angle that suits your argument?

[DjTj]

Condolences to the victims.

However, this is just another media manipulation story.

Two people killed by violent shooter.

Zero people have been killed in this case. The story has basically dropped off of any national news reporting.

[twa]

You really think a 50+ y/o is going to be chasing down someone with a gun?

And don't you think that teachers may object to this? We don't pay them enough as it is now, and then you want to add security guard to their duties?

there is no need to chase with lockdown procedures.

I do not propose requiring teachers to carry,but there are many that will and are volunteering to do so.

it beats shielding the kids with your corpse

[Mad Mike]

I am not concerned about a professional security guard shooting students. I think it is reasonable to have armed security guards in schools (although I question the cost-effectiveness of having a full-time guard in every elementary school in the country).

I am concerned with a teacher's gun being taken by a student or fired accidentally. Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

Go back and read my posts. I've said I'm against arming teachers. What I said was that in situations where it was not feasible to have an armed guard, AN ADMINISTRATOR (someone working in the office) could be trained and licensed for concealed carry as a last line of defense.

Edit: My bad. I can see how you thought I was arguing for arming teachers. I misspoke. I think I was still arguing with 757SeanTaylor21 in my head.

[MattFancy]

there is no need to chase with lockdown procedures.

I do not propose requiring teachers to carry,but there are many that will and are volunteering to do so.

it beats shielding the kids with your corpse

I just don't see it as a good idea. I think having an armed security guard is fine, but asking the teachers to carry is just too much IMO.

[Son of Gadsden]

Zero people have been killed in this case. The story has basically dropped off of any national news reporting.

Oh damn, I skip reading a post ONE time and look like an idiot. Lesson learned.

[PeterMP]

there are two countries where teachers are armed, one school district here in Texas does as well
there are also other ones in the US that have allowed teachers to be armed on a case by case basis(naturally that is kept quiet)

despite all these armed teachers I know of none shooting a student....do you?

texas
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/us...anted=all&_r=0

Utah
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...oting/1793773/

Utah has allowed teachers to carry concealed weapons on K-12 campuses for 12 years now and, said Aposhian, "We have never had any accidental or intentional shootings." He serves on the state board where any violation of concealed weapon laws would be reported.

"Teachers are professionals. They will take appropriate measures to maintain a gun discreetly and safely," said Aposhian, a tactical firearm instructor.

What two countries?

Your talking about low numbers of teachers in each of the cases in this country, and it isn't clear how many you are talking about in either case (in reality, the number might actually be 0) so I don't think you can derive any useful data from this.

And at least the case in TX, there appears to have been no deaths in schools BEFORE the teachers were carrying guns so your looking at the same death rate over time (though the gun carrying teachers are relatively recent).

[DjTj]

Edit: My bad. I can see how you thought I was arguing for arming teachers. I misspoke. I think I was still arguing with 757SeanTaylor21 in my head.

No problem.

I'll just argue with twa instead.

what if I told you the teachers would be better (or equal to) trained and screened than most armed security guards?

I would ask you how much is that training going to cost? How much time will it take? We aren't spending enough time and money training our teachers to be teachers, so I don't know where we're going to get the resources to to train teachers to be security guards.

why the fear?

Nothing stops a teacher from shooting kids now,but a armed teacher IS in the best position to defend against a shooter.

I don't think teachers will start shooting their students. A crazy teacher could do that now.

I am concerned with a teacher's gun being taken by a student or fired accidentally. Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

I am okay with administrators who are already licensed to carry to have guns in the case where a security guard can't be hired, but I am wary about guns in the classroom. And I am especially wary about trying to train administrators or teachers who aren't already licensed to start carrying guns in school. It can be an additional responsibility of their jobs if they are already comfortable with it, but it shouldn't be forced on someone if there is a school where nobody on the staff is a gun owner.

[Corcaigh]

And for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume these figures are wrong. Let's cut that figure in half just to be sure there is no exaggeration.
Thats 81 THOUSAND times a year someone justifiably used a gun in self defense, be it by showing the gun, or firing it.

I don't know what to make of those numbers. Maybe I've lived an extraordinarily sheltered life but I have never in my life been in a situation where I needed to rely on a gun to defend myself. None of my acquaintances or friends have had to either. I've defused, and walked away from, plenty of situations that could have been nasty. For us, and it's only a very limited sample I'll admit, the added risk of having a gun in our home, stored in a manner that I could access it quickly to defend myself against an unannounced and uninvited invader, is not worth it. The actual risk of a gun in our home seems like a greater one that the possibility of someone from outside entering our home and requiring us to engage in a shootout.

[Son of Gadsden]

Screw aiming teachers, let's just hire Academi security.

That should be interesting.

[Mad Mike]

I don't know what to make of those numbers. Maybe I've lived an extraordinarily sheltered life but I have never in my life been in a situation where I needed to rely on a gun to defend myself. None of my acquaintances or friends have had to either. I've defused, and walked away from, plenty of situations that could have been nasty. For us, and it's only a very limited sample I'll admit, the added risk of having a gun in our home, stored in a manner that I could access it quickly to defend myself against an unannounced and uninvited invader, is not worth it. The actual risk of a gun in our home seems like a greater one that the possibility of someone from outside entering our home and requiring us to engage in a shootout.

I've been mugged twice. One of those times I consider myself lucky to have escaped alive. On one hand I diffused the situation enough to get away, on the other I still got beat up and it was not uncommon to see in the news that someone was killed in that area. I have also been robbed at gunpoint working at a self serve gas station. The fact that I survived those situations statistically has no bearing on my chances of survival should it happen again, especially now that I'm over 50 and live with a heart condition.

Chances are you do live a sheltered life. Most of us do.

[Son of Gadsden]

I don't know what to make of those numbers. Maybe I've lived an extraordinarily sheltered life but I have never in my life been in a situation where I needed to rely on a gun to defend myself. None of my acquaintances or friends have had to either. I've defused, and walked away from, plenty of situations that could have been nasty. For us, and it's only a very limited sample I'll admit, the added risk of having a gun in our home, stored in a manner that I could access it quickly to defend myself against an unannounced and uninvited invader, is not worth it. The actual risk of a gun in our home seems like a greater one that the possibility of someone from outside entering our home and requiring us to engage in a shootout.

I'm 22 and I've had two experiences already. Didn't fire. Showing it was enough. One was my dad stopping a man from breaking into our hotel room on vacation. Another was me using it in a kind of baiting scam at my front door with a guy who was a terrible liar. I also have a father in law who raped my wife multiple times as a child, threw her mother down a flight of stairs, and has done any number of other abusive acts. He's a childrens doctor, so he's got money and another personality when not behind closed doors so no one believes what goes on. I took a pistol with me on my (at that time) girlfriend's 18th birthday on my trip to her house to attempt to peacefully take her away from his home. How does the quote go? "Pray for peace, prepare for war". Didn't have to show my pistol because it just so happens he was not home, had he been home and made a scene, it may have saved lives. My grandfather was murdered in cold blood by his step-son with a gun. So I've got that aspect too. My other grandfather's house was broken into and he backed the burglar down with a shotgun.

There are most certainly many situations where guns ARE needed and DO save lives. How about the recent story where the mother in Georgia shot down a burglar who was coming after her and her daughters with a crow bar? Was a big dude. Her chances are surviving were just about nothing. With a gun, that changed. Hell, the statistics alone show that guns are used twice as often as defense than used for crimes. Your specific experience is the norm. However, I'm glad you've never needed one.

If you have a gun in your home and you have taken a gun safety course and are a responsible person, the chances of that gun misfiring is so slim. That's a problem of ignorance my wife had originally when I met her. She didn't like being in the room with a gun nearby. After her watching my gunsmithing and everything else enough, I explained to her and showed her...guns don't just go off on their own. There are a series of things that have to occur other than just pulling the trigger, also. Kids are the same way. I grew up in a home knowing exactly where my father's home defense weapon was. I was told multiple times "Don't touch Daddy's rifle. It is not a toy. You can kill yourself, or mom and dad or one of your friends if you do. Leave it alone. For no reason do you touch it." That was emphasized on very often. My parents also didn't shelter me from weapons. I fired my first weapon at probably 7 years old. I was taught gun safety and the consequences of my actions with a firearm. I never touched a firearm as a child, yet they were not locked or in a safe (they were locked in my parents room though, of course...which was also off limits). Why? Because my parents were responsible parents. The thing to fear in this world is ignorance. Without ignorance, guns are completely safe. With ignorance, just about nothing is safe. If you don't know gun safety, and are incapable of treating it as a serious thing, no.....you should not have one in your home. But I'd bet you can.

[twa]

No problem.

I'll just argue with twa instead.

I would ask you how much is that training going to cost? How much time will it take? We aren't spending enough time and money training our teachers to be teachers, so I don't know where we're going to get the resources to to train teachers to be security guards.

I don't think teachers will start shooting their students. A crazy teacher could do that now.

I am concerned with a teacher's gun being taken by a student or fired accidentally. Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

I am okay with administrators who are already licensed to carry to have guns in the case where a security guard can't be hired, but I am wary about guns in the classroom. And I am especially wary about trying to train administrators or teachers who aren't already licensed to start carrying guns in school. It can be an additional responsibility of their jobs if they are already comfortable with it, but it shouldn't be forced on someone if there is a school where nobody on the staff is a gun owner.

if individuals or organisations are willing to pay the costs it is immaterial(though making it tax deductible might be appropriate), as far as time....many teachers have time,and are presently taking training

would a gun safe be enough to ease your objection to a guns presence?
You could go even further and have the gun in the safe and the clip/speedloader in the teachers possession

I certainly agree no one should be forced to be armed

is the risk of school shootings so small that even prudent measures are more of a risk?