Yahoo/AP: NY seals 1st state gun laws since Newtown massacre

[AsburySkinsFan]

You mean 8,583 homicides by firearm? Including justifiable homicide by peope and police? At least according to FBI stats from 2011, the last available official numbers.

Source?
My numbers we obvious estimates, but one's based off actual data that showed 8,000+ handgun homicides and 3,000+ other gun related homicides. I posted it in another thread and have been working off those estimates. BTW, you still ignored the point in order to quibble over a number.

[Larry]

You typed a lot of words and still managed to avoid answering the question I asked regarding the NRA's repeated neutering of the ATF's ability to "enforce the laws on the books", for that sir you should receive a prize.

Yes, he did answer your question.

If you look very closely, in the middle of his rant, you will see the word "Yes".

---------- Post added January-18th-2013 at 01:16 PM ----------

The NRA has zero impact on federal, state and local officials enforcing existing laws.

Pay no attention to the documented, 100% factual examples, which are being discussed. If I simply claim that they don;t exist, then they don't.

And don't think no one notices that your claim not-so-subtlely implies that the NRA controls the Senate.

1) Funny, I haven't seen him not-so-subtly imply that. Could you point it out?

2) And let me guess. You're going to claim that the NRA has had zero effect in the fact that the NRA successfully changed federal law to require confirmation of the head of the ATF, and that, since that law was changed, the Senate has not permitted a single nominee to even be voted on?

Or is it possible that the truth is somewhere in between? That the NRA, while it does not have a magic internet connection which activates the implanted mind control chips which give them full, complete, control of 100% of the actions of 100% of the members of both houses of Congress, does have an awful lot of influence on Capital Hill, (that they are, in fact, widely recognized, along with the AARP, as either the most powerful or the second most powerful lobbying organization in Washington), and that yes, they are a big part of the reason why that language was inserted, and why every nomination since then has been successfully filibustered?

[Popeman38]

Source?
My numbers we obvious estimates, but one's based off actual data that showed 8,000+ handgun homicides and 3,000+ other gun related homicides. I posted it in another thread and have been working off those estimates. BTW, you still ignored the point in order to quibble over a number.

I posted my source in this thread: The FBI crime statistics for the last reported year - 2011 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8

---------- Post added January-18th-2013 at 02:39 PM ----------

Yes, he did answer your question.

If you look very closely, in the middle of his rant, you will see the word "Yes".

Way to take a single word out of context Larry, you are getting very good at that.

Pay no attention to the documented, 100% factual examples, which are being discussed. If I simply claim that they don;t exist, then they don't.

Wanna play that game? Provide documented proof that the NRA did anything directly. Or did they, just leke every other lobby in Washington, exert pressure and influence on the government to implement lobby-friendly legislation?

1) Funny, I haven't seen him not-so-subtly imply that. Could you point it out?

Hmmm, where could I possibly find that ?

Has the NRA fought against the nomination of an ATF Director, have they created legislation that prevents the ATF from tracking down the 1% of dealers who are supplying guns to the majority of criminals? If the things he presents are true and it is also true that he NRA has approved the language of these measures and then they have the nerve to say "enforce the laws we have"......well screw them.

Emphasis mine. The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.

2) And let me guess. You're going to claim that the NRA has had zero effect in the fact that the NRA successfully changed federal law to require confirmation of the head of the ATF, and that, since that law was changed, the Senate has not permitted a single nominee to even be voted on?

The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.

Or is it possible that the truth is somewhere in between? That the NRA, while it does not have a magic internet connection which activates the implanted mind control chips which give them full, complete, control of 100% of the actions of 100% of the members of both houses of Congress, does have an awful lot of influence on Capital Hill, (that they are, in fact, widely recognized, along with the AARP, as either the most powerful or the second most powerful lobbying organization in Washington), and that yes, they are a big part of the reason why that language was inserted, and why every nomination since then has been successfully filibustered?

The NRA is a lobby. They make money from individuals, and use that money to lobby. Imagine that. They exert influence on lawmakers. Lawmakers can, at anytime, close the door and tell the NRA to pound sand. And some have. See the gun control measures in Massachusetts. The left complains about the right creating booggiemen that pull the puppet stings of liberal politicians. Pot, meet kettle. The NRA is the lefts boogieman.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Wow....just wow.....now the NRA (the nation's biggest and most influential lobby) is powerless. I have heard it all.
We are honestly supposed to believe that lie?
Watch what happens when a politician in a Red state doesn't tow the NRA line.....no power.......that is a dandy of a lie.
Huge.....massive......colossal.....enormous.....mo nolithic......

[DjTj]

[QUOTE=Popeman38;9404046]The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.

The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.

Actually, the best strategy (and the NRA gets this) is to direct lobbying at politicians. Direct ire towards your opponent's lobbyists.

The NRA has done a great job of directing its ire towards gun control supporters. But it directs its lobbying to politicians. The best hope for gun control supporters is to direct their ire towards the NRA, making the NRA look bad in the public eye, and making it unpalatable for politicians to be seen as too close to the NRA.

But directing ire towards politicians is counterproductive unless you think you can defeat them in an upcoming election. Otherwise you might need their vote.

Demonize your opponents. Lobby the politicians. That is how a bill becomes a law.

[Larry]

Way to take a single word out of context Larry, you are getting very good at that.

I quoted the only part of your post, that actually responded to his question.

Every single thing that he asked you, if it was true, you agreed, in your post, was true. Correct?

When the question is "Is X true",
And the answer is "yes, but"
Then "yes" is the answer.

Isn't it?

Wanna play that game? Provide documented proof that the NRA did anything directly. Or did they, just leke every other lobby in Washington, exert pressure and influence on the government to implement lobby-friendly legislation?

That is doing something directly.

No one is saying that the head of the NRA personally walked onto the floor of congress and single-handedly cast 300 votes in favor of any of these measures.

So you pointing out that the NRA did not cast a vote is really devastating to the argument that nobody is making.

Hmmm, where could I possibly find that ? Emphasis mine.

And you have not in any way shown the claim that you made.

He did not say "the NRA, who was in charge of the Senate". He said "The NRA fought against".

And they did.

In fact, I haven't tried to go find it, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that the NRA claims credit for accomplishing those goals. Or at the very least, for exerting influence in those directions.

They're in the business of pushing Washington to vote the way they want. It's their sole reason for existence. (Well, the lobbying part of their organization. The NRA has lots of other parts, over and above lobbying.)

The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.
The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.
The NRA is a lobby. They make money from individuals, and use that money to lobby. Imagine that. They exert influence on lawmakers. Lawmakers can, at anytime, close the door and tell the NRA to pound sand. And some have. See the gun control measures in Massachusetts. The left complains about the right creating booggiemen that pull the puppet stings of liberal politicians. Pot, meet kettle. The NRA is the lefts boogieman.

Influence is power.

The word "boogyman" implies that the NRA does not exist. They absolutely do. They are widely recognized as one of the two most powerful lobbying groups in Washington. (With the AARP).

(And, FWIW, for pretty much the same reason. Other lobbying organizations have the power to give politicians money. But the NRA and the AARP have the power, through their information programs, to deliver or withhold votes.)

(IMO, that's one of the advantages that a lobbying group has, when they're lobbying on behalf of individuals, as opposed to corporations. But that's another topic.)

Sorry, the only boogyman here is your person who is claiming that the NRA casts votes in Congress.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Demonize your opponents. Lobby the politicians. That is how a bill becomes a law.

I keep watching "Schoolhouse Rock" and it is missing this whole aspect of how a bill becomes a law.
http://youtu.be/tyeJ55o3El0

[Popeman38]

Wow....just wow.....now the NRA (the nation's biggest and most influential lobby) is powerless. I have heard it all.
We are honestly supposed to believe that lie?
Watch what happens when a politician in a Red state doesn't tow the NRA line.....no power.......that is a dandy of a lie.
Huge.....massive......colossal.....enormous.....mo nolithic......

You and Larry both need to stop the bull**** game. You stated the NRA "created legislation" when the NRA does not have the power to create legislation. You know this. Yet you post the "screw the NRA" quote in multiple threads. We get it. You don't like the NRA. You think they bully the government on behalf of gun rights. When someone else speaks badly of unions doing the same thing for workers rights, it is "great that someone sticks up for the Constitution".

And just as an FYI, Larry, gun control is not a red vs blue debate. It is more of a rural vs urban debate. Harry Reid doesn't support what the President and Vice President are pushing. Why? Because Nevada has quite a few gun owners that ar Dems.

[Larry]

You and Larry both need to stop the bull**** game. You stated the NRA "created legislation" when the NRA does not have the power to create legislation.

Really?

Could you point me to the law (a law of Man, or of Nature) which conclusively states that it is impossible for the NRA to request that a Congressman introduce this piece of legislation that the NRA created?

Thanks.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You and Larry both need to stop the bull**** game. You stated the NRA "created legislation" when the NRA does not have the power to create legislation.

The heck they can't, they write the law and their paid for Congressmen introduce it as law, that's what "the NRA has approved the language" means!

[Popeman38]

Really?

Could you point me to the law (a law of Man, or of Nature) which conclusively states that it is impossible for the NRA to request that a Congressman introduce this piece of legislation that the NRA created?

Thanks.

So you agree that the NRA can not create legislation. All they can do is put words on paper. CONGRESS, the SENATE, and the PRESIDENT create and pass legislation. The NRA is a lobby. Quit affording them power to bypass the entire legislative process.

[Larry]

So you agree that the NRA can not create legislation.

So you agree you're a liar.

Now that we've got that out of the way, could you answer the question that I asked?

Thanks again.

[AsburySkinsFan]

So you agree that the NRA can not create legislation. All they can do is put words on paper. CONGRESS, the SENATE, and the PRESIDENT create and pass legislation. The NRA is a lobby. Quit affording them power to bypass the entire legislative process.

Ummm if the NRA puts the words on paper then they created it, the Congress just introduces and passes what the NRA created.

[Popeman38]

So you agree you're a liar.

Now that we've got that out of the way, could you answer the question that I asked?

Thanks again.

Hey look! Larry called someone a liar again. I am shocked. Your act gets old Larry.

Could you point me to the law (a law of Man, or of Nature) which conclusively states that it is impossible for the NRA to request that a Congressman introduce this piece of legislation that the NRA created?

Once again, the NRA can put words on paper. The NRA can hand paper to Congressman. NRA can explain why they want said Congressman to submit paper as lesislation. Congressman, AND CONGRESSMAN ALONE, has to decide whether to submit paper or not. If Congressman does, HE created legislation. Legislation is then debated on the floor of the House of Representatives, where other Congressmen add riders and amendments to "help" their constituents. Legislation is then voted on by the House of Representatives. If the House of Representatives passes legislation, legislation is then passed to the Senate. The Senate then debates the merits of the legislation. Senate votes on legislation. If Senate passes legislation, without changing it, legislation goes to the President's desk for signature or veto. If the President signs the legislation, it has now become law. So yeah, I am pretty confident that the NRA has no power to create legislation.

And don't change your question again to claim I didn't answer it. I never stated the NRA can't request a memebr of Congress to submit wording. And you know that.

[Burgold]

Larry, Popeman, and others... it may be just me, but I find these wordplay games tedious. Is this really the nit you want to pick?