From Backwoods Home Magazine: 2nd Amendment, the Bill of Rights...long read, but worth it

[Stadium-Armory]

Wouldn't it be easier for a bystander to stop or slow down a shooter that needs to reload more often?

My father wrote this piece which was published in the post today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...7b8_story.html

Eliminate detachable magazines
President Obama proposed to ban military-style assault weapons and limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds [“Gun agenda faces an uphill campaign,” front page, Jan. 17]. This proposal echoes similar ones from many gun-control advocates. For example, in a Jan. 16 op-ed, “Clip the capacity to kill,” Jason Ross stated that if the AR-15’s magazine capacity were limited to five rounds, it would no longer be an assault weapon.

Perhaps so, by prevalent definitions, but it is important to remember that as long as a gun’s magazine is detachable at the push of a button, as is the case with an AR-15, a shooter on a rampage with such a gun could carry extra, pre-loaded magazines, quickly exchange an emptied one for a full one, and continue shooting with only a few interruptions. With a 10-round magazine, the limit proposed by the president, there would be very few interruptions.

A much more effective approach would be to combine a limit on magazine capacity — say, to five rounds — with the requirement that the magazine must be fixed, not detachable, and with no insertable clips. Such a magazine can be reloaded only by a manual, time-consuming, one-shell-at-a-time process. A deranged person would have a much harder time killing many people with such a gun than with one with a detachable magazine.

Its strange for me to read the comments section and see people who don't know my dad calling him names. An odd sensation..

[DjTj]

Wait, what? I thought an armed citizen would never be able to stop a mass shooting, even if the shooter were to change magazines?!?

That has never been my stance. Responsible citizens should be able to own reasonable guns for self-defense or recreation. A 30-round magazine is something that is much more useful for mass killing than it is for hunting, repelling a home invasion, or intervening to stop a crime. In Oregon, a responsible gunowner with a concealed carry license may have stopped a crime by pointing his pistol at a shooter. I have yet to hear of a case where a high-capacity magazine was necessary for self-defense.

[Popeman38]

How many seconds are you claiming it will take? I honestly have never done more than shoot through a magazine at a gun range, so I have never tried to change out a clip as fast as possible. But to detach a magazine, grab another magazine, insert it, and reacquire the target and start shooting again, you are saying that can typically be done in 1 second? SW81 said it would take "seconds." Do you disagree with that?

Changing a mag is literally a split second thing. For a handgun, you drop the old mag at the push of a button, slapping a new mag in, and releasing the upper receiver. Trained, you can do this in less than a second. A novice could very easily take a couple seconds.

[Bang]

Hell, McGyver didn't even NEED a magazine. he could make a clip out of a matchbook and and old pencil.

~Bang

[ZoEd]

That has never been my stance. Responsible citizens should be able to own reasonable guns for self-defense or recreation. A 30-round magazine is something that is much more useful for mass killing than it is for hunting, repelling a home invasion, or intervening to stop a crime. In Oregon, a responsible gunowner with a concealed carry license may have stopped a crime by pointing his pistol at a shooter. I have yet to hear of a case where a high-capacity magazine was necessary for self-defense.

Neither are 800 HP cars, 200mph motorcycles or any other excesses in life but responsible people can own them, even though the Prius driving folks of the world probably think that no reasonable person needs to have that much power or the ability to go that fast! It's ludicrus!

Just because you're not familiar with the weapons or what they're used for doesn't mean there aren't responsible people out there who use them in a safe manner. And no one has proven to me or shown me evidence these demonized weapons, with all of their firey fangs, scales and big high capacity mouthes full of shiny bullets enabled these mass shootings to take place! Do any of you, raise your hand, please tell me how long it takes to drop a magazine, reload a full one and continue shooting? Anyone. Bueller?

[Burgold]

My father wrote this piece which was published in the post today:

Commented myself in the Post section. Johnny who criticized your father made a very dumb argument in my book.

[zoony]

Just because you're not familiar with the weapons or what they're used for doesn't mean there aren't responsible people out there who use them in a safe manner.?

I find it ironic that you are asking for a civil discussion and claiming persecution after reading that gem.

As for the part above, again, show me where DJTj or anyone else said that there are no responsible people out there when it comes to assault weapons, nevermind the implied causal relationship you feel exists between that and DJTjs knowledge about guns.

And for the record, I would put my gun knowledge against yours any day of the week. If you want to get into a pointless Internet pissing contest about who knows more about guns, that's fine, just give me a little advanced notice. And let's hook up a chat feature or live phone call so we can both avoid looking up answers on google.

Now back to your whining about people labeling you and acting like jerks....

[DjTj]

Neither are 800 HP cars, 200mph motorcycles or any other excesses in life but responsible people can own them, even though the Prius driving folks of the world probably think that no reasonable person needs to have that much power or the ability to go that fast! It's ludicrus!

But 800-HP cars aren't stolen for the purpose of committing crimes and killing other people. And we do actually have restrictions on emissions, undercarriage clearance, lights, etc. that are "cosmetic" to the car but make it safer for the public. And of course you have to register your car. I don't think that the assault weapons ban is asking for much more from gun owners than is required of car owners. There is a line beyond which we don't allow people to buy cars of a certain weight or size or type, and we are just arguing about where the proper line is for guns between individual rights and public safety.

Just because you're not familiar with the weapons or what they're used for doesn't mean there aren't responsible people out there who use them in a safe manner. And no one has proven to me or shown me evidence these demonized weapons, with all of their firey fangs, scales and big high capacity mouthes full of shiny bullets enabled these mass shootings to take place! Do any of you, raise your hand, please tell me how long it takes to drop a magazine, reload a full one and continue shooting? Anyone. Bueller?

I am not sure if you have been reading this thread, but the last 3 pages have been a discussion of the amount of time it takes to reload.

Edit: I do think that limiting mag sizes is a pretty ridiculous and token idea. There really is nothing that is going to come from that. Mag changes happen in seconds. At Columbine, they just brought a whole bunch of mags with them and swapped them out.

Wouldn't it be easier for a bystander to stop or slow down a shooter that needs to reload more often?

limiting magazine sizes probablyis a token idea, and conversely, i think that they can be used as bait if kept legal.
Take the case of the Aurora shooter, if anyone had the power to review his applications would clearly see many red flags of a guy getting ready to go to war. buying drum magazines, body armor. gun after gun.. these are ways we can look into preventing such things reasonably.

~Bang

It doesn't take a "few seconds" to change a magazine. To clear a jam? Yeah. to change a magazine? No. I don't know if that changes MF's opinion of the "reasoning".

So how long does it take to reload then? Sometimes seconds are all you need in situations like this.

How many seconds are you claiming it will take? I honestly have never done more than shoot through a magazine at a gun range, so I have never tried to change out a clip as fast as possible. But to detach a magazine, grab another magazine, insert it, and reacquire the target and start shooting again, you are saying that can typically be done in 1 second? SW81 said it would take "seconds." Do you disagree with that?

Are we talking average person or the guy that its around practicing it all day and always keep it in exactly the same place? It can take anywhere from a second to an embarrassingly long time. I doubt that most mass murderers are well oiled machines that practice countless hours in order to get changing the mag programmed into muscle memory. Thus the massive capacity mag.

Changing a mag is literally a split second thing. For a handgun, you drop the old mag at the push of a button, slapping a new mag in, and releasing the upper receiver. Trained, you can do this in less than a second. A novice could very easily take a couple seconds.

Maybe you're the one that skipped class today?

[wshngtn1]

Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

[DjTj]

Have a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

If they are just there to rob you, I think it's likely that firing a few shots and taking cover will be your best strategy to scare them away. No matter how many rounds are in your gun, one against four is not good odds.

And while we're thinking about this, what if 10 armed thugs break into your house? It would suck to only have a semiautomatic rifle with a 50-round magazine. We'll have to legalize belt-fed automatic weapons if we are going to have a chance.

And what if 30 armed thugs break into your house? It's going to suck to only have the one machine gun. I guess we'll have to legalize grenades and flame throwers and apache helicopters.

We're all going to have to face the fact that no matter how well we arm ourselves, there will be situations where it is not going to be possible to defend ourselves without additional backup. So can we have a reasonable discussion about what guns are necessary for home defense without coming up with wild scenarios?

[Destino]

Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

I don't live in a warehouse with long distances and wide open spaces so I'd probably not chose a rifle in that situation. I hope neighbors also decide not to spray their rifle at the street toughs that invade their home. My walls are kind if thin.

Hand guns aren't ideal either being that 4 armed thugs will continue to shoot back at you unless your shots hit perfectly and the odds of hitting more than one in the brain or heart is virtually zero. Shotgun would be good but with those number retreat and escape might be better.

[PleaseBlitz]

Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

Buy 4 guns.

[Burgold]

Buy 4 guns.

Actually, putting pressure sensitive landmines inside your house next to all your doors and windows would do the job better.

[Predicto]

Having a 7 or 10 round magazine would suck when 4 armed thugs break down your door in the middle of the night. I guess I could tell them they are breaking the law and to please have a seat until the police arrive.

I'd hate to be your neighbor if you are seriously considering using an assault rifle for home defense. Those bullets are going to go through several nearby houses before they even slow down. Heck, I'd hate to be your kids - ceilings are no protection either.

Home defense: shotgun. Accept no substitutes.

[Bang]

Hard to argue with him when there's abundant video evidence of the benefits of large magazine high powered weaponry.


~Bang