W.P.: Dan Snyder says he fired Vinny Cerrato for letting him hire Jim Zorn(M.E.T.)

[Stadium-Armory]

Of course: Defending himself for hiring Spurrier but destroying Vinny for hiring Zorn.

To be fair, a few well known NFL minds agreed with Snyder at the time. Ron Wolf, the Packers GM said of Spurrier:

"No question, I think he'll be a success," said Ron Wolf, the former Green Bay Packers general manager. "The reason? Because he has a brilliant offensive mind and that's what it's all about."

http://espn.go.com/chrismortensen/s/...3/1310972.html

[hail2skins]

And all of us fans are partially to blame for Snyder getting Zorn. This board and the radio talk shows blew up with fans enraged about the rumor that Jim Fassel was the next head coach. Fans hated the rumored choice.....which forced Snyder to look elsewhere....but by then it was too late....nothing else left to sign, except to promote Zorn.

If Snyder was so petrified by the reaction on ES over the rumor that Fassel was going to be hired, that is indeed pitiful. Wow, what were the fans going to do if we hired Fassel? Not go to the games and make Snyder rip 12,000 seats out of the upper deck? Oh wait..........

---------- Post added January-30th-2013 at 10:11 PM ----------

Gibbs needed a personnel man. Or, he needed someone like Bruce Allen who wasn't the personnel guy, but wrote the contracts and got our cap space right, and then basically..."forced" Gibbs to listen to his scouting department. Like now, Shanny has the final say, but he defers to Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown, he lets his scouts do their work, and then he makes his decisions accordingly. Gibbs and Vinny basically ignored the scouts outright.

A couple of years ago Snyder made a quote which suggested that he thought that a big-name coach was all it took for him to "not be as involved," but after Shanahan's struggles the first two years, I hope Snyder has at least learned what NLC says above.......that you need a good method to build the team as well.

[8181]

Still a lot of BS in terms of Gibbs..

He retired January 8, DAYS after the playoff loss. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3186165

That's PLENTY OF TIME TO FIND A NEW COACH. Hell, Mike Smith was hired on January 24 and John Harbaugh was hired on January 18. No coaching candidates my ass

Now in 2008, let's say this is our draft:

1st - Sam Baker (Starting Playoff OT for Falcons) / Duane Brown (Starting PB OT for Texans)
2nd - Ray Rice (BPA? Better than Fred Davis)
3rd - Jermichael Finley
3rd - Kory Lichtensteiger (Starting OG for Redskins)
5th - Carl Nicks (Starting PB G for Bucs)
6th - John Sullivan (Starting C for Vikings)
7th - Rob Jackson (LB for Redskins)
7th - Chris Horton (who knows)

Our offensive roster would've looked like this:

QB: Jason Campbell / Todd Collins
C: Rabach / Sullivan
G: Randy Thomas / Nicks / Lichtensteiger
T: Chris Samuels / Baker / Jon Jansen
R: Santana Moss / Randle El
TE: Cooley / Finley
RB: Portis / Rice

Now remember, in REALITY, ZORN/CERRATO WENT 8-8 with draft picks of Colt Brennan, Durant Brooks, Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas. Are you telling me we wouldn't have done better with a better draft such as this?

Gibbs gave the Redskins the opportunity for this kind of draft.

In 2009, we could've taken all sorts of players no matter where we picked:

1st: Orakpo (if we somehow still remained 8-8), Josh Freeman, Percy Harvin, Clay Matthews, Hakeem Nicks
2nd: LeSean McCoy (traded away for Jason Taylor)
3rd: Mike Wallace

And so on. While I'm happy we got RG3, it's not Gibbs fault we had to go through the Zorn years plus two years of craptacular Shanahan rosters to be a 1 and done NFC East division crown winner. We could have accomplished that easily if the front office had done a better job.

[Rocky52Mc]

Still a lot of BS in terms of Gibbs..

He retired January 8, DAYS after the playoff loss. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3186165

That's PLENTY OF TIME TO FIND A NEW COACH. Hell, Mike Smith was hired on January 24 and John Harbaugh was hired on January 18. No coaching candidates my ass

Now in 2008, let's say this is our draft:

1st - Sam Baker (Starting Playoff OT for Falcons) / Duane Brown (Starting PB OT for Texans)
2nd - Ray Rice (BPA? Better than Fred Davis)
3rd - Jermichael Finley
3rd - Kory Lichtensteiger (Starting OG for Redskins)
5th - Carl Nicks (Starting PB G for Bucs)
6th - John Sullivan (Starting C for Vikings)
7th - Rob Jackson (LB for Redskins)
7th - Chris Horton (who knows)

Our offensive roster would've looked like this:

QB: Jason Campbell / Todd Collins
C: Rabach / Sullivan
G: Randy Thomas / Nicks / Lichtensteiger
T: Chris Samuels / Baker / Jon Jansen
R: Santana Moss / Randle El
TE: Cooley / Finley
RB: Portis / Rice

Now remember, in REALITY, ZORN/CERRATO WENT 8-8 with draft picks of Colt Brennan, Durant Brooks, Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas. Are you telling me we wouldn't have done better with a better draft such as this?

Gibbs gave the Redskins the opportunity for this kind of draft.

In 2009, we could've taken all sorts of players no matter where we picked:

1st: Orakpo (if we somehow still remained 8-8), Josh Freeman, Percy Harvin, Clay Matthews, Hakeem Nicks
2nd: LeSean McCoy (traded away for Jason Taylor)
3rd: Mike Wallace

And so on. While I'm happy we got RG3, it's not Gibbs fault we had to go through the Zorn years plus two years of craptacular Shanahan rosters to be a 1 and done NFC East division crown winner. We could have accomplished that easily if the front office had done a better job.

I'm sorry to say man, that's all complete rubbish.

You can't compare players on other teams and placing them on your own team. It just does NOT work like that.

How it does work:

Players work in SYSTEMS. Players work when they give it their all. Players work when they fit a scheme. A player busts when he doesn't have the proper motivation, environment, scheme, coach, players, and sometimes it even goes deep down to fan fare.

People always ***** that we could have "had" DeSean Jackson...which is laughable. But he very well could have never seen the field just like the other 2 wide outs we had. We had an incompetent coaching staff and owner and GM. Nothing was really going to work here, sorry. Maybe a diamond in the rough, and that's what we had in Cooley, and a few other guys, but even Gibbs fell hard to the surrounding environments bull****.

The Redskins between 2000 and 2009 are the perfect example of the negative effects of Free Agency. You can't just take a solid player and expect him to immediately improve your team "at the least, he's solid right there".

Finley is a piece of **** when it comes to dedication in this game. He's a terrible teammate. Sam Baker has been NOTHING of what Atlanta expected of him when they traded up to make him Matt Ryan's blind side protector. Yea, that didn't last long.

BOTH of those guys will most likely be off those teams in 3 months and wearing different colors.

[pjfootballer]

I love when armchair GMs in here go back 2, 3, 4 years of drafts after players have established themselves and play the "what if" game. I think that is the most ignorant thing you can do. I'd rather someone go back in a draft thread from 3 years ago and say, "see, I wanted this guy, but we took this guy instead." That would make it more credible than seeing DeSean's name being thrown around after he's torched us for 3 years.

[AdmiralWaugh]

Still a lot of BS in terms of Gibbs..

He retired January 8, DAYS after the playoff loss. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3186165

That's PLENTY OF TIME TO FIND A NEW COACH. Hell, Mike Smith was hired on January 24 and John Harbaugh was hired on January 18. No coaching candidates my ass

.

Since you're into history, when you have a little time go back to that period and look at what established candidates were available on Jan. 8 or thereabouts. Be interested in who you think was out there.

As I said before, Fassel, Schwartz, Mora, Meeks, Spagnulo, etc. were the lineup because they were the best available options.

[8181]

Did you not see that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh were hired in 2008?

Also, you guys can't have it both ways. You can't say Gibbs screwed us over because there was nothing we could do, and then say you can't armchair GM when I give a possible alternative to show that YES, there was something we could have done after he retired.

The facts are this:

Gibbs left behind a 9-7 team.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters good enough to go 6-2.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters and depth good enough to go 8-8 under ZORN AND CAMPBELL.
Gibbs left behind a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 5th, a 6th, and two 7ths.
Gibbs retired on January 8.

These are all things any competent front office can successfully work with. To claim otherwise is just making Gibbs a scapegoat for absolutely no valid reason.

[pjfootballer]

Did you not see that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh were hired in 2008?

Also, you guys can't have it both ways. You can't say Gibbs screwed us over because there was nothing we could do, and then say you can't armchair GM when I give a possible alternative to show that YES, there was something we could have done after he retired.

The facts are this:

Gibbs left behind a 9-7 team.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters good enough to go 6-2.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters and depth good enough to go 8-8 under ZORN AND CAMPBELL.
Gibbs left behind a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 5th, a 6th, and two 7ths.
Gibbs retired on January 8.

These are all things any competent front office can successfully work with. To claim otherwise is just making Gibbs a scapegoat for absolutely no valid reason.

And here's my thing. How about we stop living in the past and do what the team is trying to do, as fans, and move forward. Too much rehashing the past 20 years, when it just doesn't do any good. The past is past and you can't change that. I'm looking FORWARD to the next season AHEAD of us. Here, let me recap the last 20 years and just get it out of the way so we can enjoy the 2013 season coming up:

1993- Richie Petitbone- we sucked
1994-2000- Norv Turner/Terry Robiskie- we sucked
2001- Marty Schottenheimer- we sucked
2002-2003- Steve Spurrier- we sucked
2004-2007- Joe Gibbs (sorry coach)- we sucked
2008-2009- Jim Zorn- we sucked
2010-2011- Mike Shanahan- we sucked but going in the right direction

1999-2001-Vinny Cerrato- we sucked
2002-2009- Vinny Cerrato- we sucked worse

So there you have it. Can we just move on now and enjoy this team?

Edit: And I apolgize for my tone. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but I can see if I sounded that way. I just want everyone to forget the bleak past and look to a better future for this team. Talking about the past gets depressing.

[TMK9973]

1993- Richie Petitbone- we sucked
1994-2000- Norv Turner/Terry Robiskie- we sucked
2001- Marty Schottenheimer- we sucked
2002-2003- Steve Spurrier- we sucked
2004-2007- Joe Gibbs (sorry coach)- we sucked
2008-2009- Jim Zorn- we sucked
2010-2011- Mike Shanahan- we sucked but going in the right direction

1999-2001-Vinny Cerrato- we sucked
2002-2009- Vinny Cerrato- we sucked worse

1993 - No playoffs
1994-2000 - 1-1 in 1 playoff season
2001- no playoffs
2002-2003 - no playoffs
2004-2007 - 1-2 in 2 playoff season
2008 - 2009 - No playoffs
2010-2012 - 0-1 in 1 playoff season

All for moving forward -But still refuse to look at the fact s and See Gibbs 2.0 as anything other then a reprieve from sucking....

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm still convinced that Zorn got the job by default. He was originally hired as OC and Blatche was promoted to DC and you're interviewing Mariucchi and Fassel and picking their staff for them. No experienced head coach is going to let the front office pick their staff for them.

I didn't understand it at the time and will never understand it. Hiring the coordinators before the HC was the most bizarre thing Snyder and Co. ever did.

My favorite part of the Zorn Experience was everyone being excited about having a young coach when Zorn is 8 months younger than Shanahan.

---------- Post added January-31st-2013 at 03:23 PM ----------

Now in 2008, let's say this is our draft:

This is the most useless exercise in the world.

[TheLongshot]

Did you not see that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh were hired in 2008?

Also, you guys can't have it both ways. You can't say Gibbs screwed us over because there was nothing we could do, and then say you can't armchair GM when I give a possible alternative to show that YES, there was something we could have done after he retired.

Ok, let's get to the heart of the matter: most teams know when they are thinking of getting rid of a coach and will need to look for a new one next season. Hell, the Falcons had gotten rid of theirs midseason. So, most organizations are pretty prepared once the season ends to conduct a head coaching search.

The issues that the Redskins had with Gibbs retiring were:
* The fact that since Gibbs was running football operations, there was now a leadership vacuum that needed to be filled.
* The timing of it all, the fact it seemed to surprise everyone in the organization.

So, that first week, instead of having that list of candidates and bringing in guys to interview, the team needed to identify who was going to run the team and have that guy come up with a list of candidates. So, you are already in the middle of January and you haven't even interviewed anyone.

Maybe things would have been fine if there was a clear succession plan before all of this happens. A person is identified beforehand as being a guy who would take over if Gibbs decided to leave and take charge of the FO. That guy didn't exist in the organization. As much as people like to think of Vinny as Snyder's right-hand man, I never really got the impression that Snyder felt THAT highly about Vinny. Yes, he ran the personnel department, but until then end, Snyder never felt comfortable letting him drive the Porsche and he only did it out of being the last resort. (Hell, a year later he was talking to Bruce Allen about a position.)

The facts are this:

Gibbs left behind a 9-7 team.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters good enough to go 6-2.
Gibbs left behind a team with starters and depth good enough to go 8-8 under ZORN AND CAMPBELL.
Gibbs left behind a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 5th, a 6th, and two 7ths.
Gibbs retired on January 8.

These are all things any competent front office can successfully work with. To claim otherwise is just making Gibbs a scapegoat for absolutely no valid reason.

Well, here are some more facts: The team Gibbs left behind was getting old pretty quickly, something Gibbs acknowledged in 2007. The trading of picks, including the debacle of acquisitions in 2006, was paying a heavy toll on this team and was catching up to them. It was also built for a Gibbs-style offense, which has gone out of favor in the league. The league has changed a lot since Gibbs coached, and the Don Coryell offensive philosophy has gone by the wayside.

Also, one or two drafts weren't going to save us. I think it was Shanahan himself who said that if you hit on 50% of your picks, you are doing pretty damn good. Most of the time, you will hit less than that. Given that also you will have a lot of players who don't fit in with the new coaching staff, there is going to be a lot of turnover.

Really, the litmus test was that when Zorn was fired and Shanahan took over the next year, we didn't see any dramatic improvement in the record of this team. People like to say that Vinny ruined this team, but really what he couldn't do was arrest the fall that was happening.

I do agree with you to a certain extent that Gibbs gets too much blame. Really, the reason Gibbs was in the position where he was was because Snyder put him there, and it was up to Snyder to prepare for a time when Gibbs didn't want to run the team any longer. Certainly Gibbs could have helped more than he did, but given he felt that Vinny could do the job and deserved the chance, maybe he wasn't the right person to be helping out.

[pjfootballer]

1993 - No playoffs
1994-2000 - 1-1 in 1 playoff season
2001- no playoffs
2002-2003 - no playoffs
2004-2007 - 1-2 in 2 playoff season
2008 - 2009 - No playoffs
2010-2012 - 0-1 in 1 playoff season

All for moving forward -But still refuse to look at the fact s and See Gibbs 2.0 as anything other then a reprieve from sucking....

I know I was being rather blount in my assessment, but it was to make a point and not necessarily argue which season sucked worse than the others. I mean, the goal is to be a Super Bowl Champion and a team that is "consistantly" competing for Super Bowls and besides a couple of wild card playoff runs, I would hardly call anything we've done since January 26, 1992, successful. We used to have higher standards as fans when wild card losses were just as bad as going 4-12. Now, it seems like when we win more than 8 games, we should throw a party. Don't get me wrong, the 10-6 was welcome news this year and I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it means about as much as 2005 and 2007 if we fail to build on it next year. We drop back to 7-9 and you might as well say we sucked this past season also.

[8181]

This is the most useless exercise in the world.

The purpose of the exercise wasn't to say, "This is how we should have drafted", it was to disprove the notion that Gibbs left our team in some unsalvageable hole.

Ok, let's get to the heart of the matter: most teams know when they are thinking of getting rid of a coach and will need to look for a new one next season. Hell, the Falcons had gotten rid of theirs midseason. So, most organizations are pretty prepared once the season ends to conduct a head coaching search.

The issues that the Redskins had with Gibbs retiring were:
* The fact that since Gibbs was running football operations, there was now a leadership vacuum that needed to be filled.
* The timing of it all, the fact it seemed to surprise everyone in the organization.

So, that first week, instead of having that list of candidates and bringing in guys to interview, the team needed to identify who was going to run the team and have that guy come up with a list of candidates. So, you are already in the middle of January and you haven't even interviewed anyone.

Maybe things would have been fine if there was a clear succession plan before all of this happens. A person is identified beforehand as being a guy who would take over if Gibbs decided to leave and take charge of the FO. That guy didn't exist in the organization. As much as people like to think of Vinny as Snyder's right-hand man, I never really got the impression that Snyder felt THAT highly about Vinny. Yes, he ran the personnel department, but until then end, Snyder never felt comfortable letting him drive the Porsche and he only did it out of being the last resort. (Hell, a year later he was talking to Bruce Allen about a position.)

Here we just have a difference of opinion so I can respect what you say. I believe the front office should have been able to react, you believe they should not reasonably be expected to be able to. OK.

Well, here are some more facts: The team Gibbs left behind was getting old pretty quickly, something Gibbs acknowledged in 2007. The trading of picks, including the debacle of acquisitions in 2006, was paying a heavy toll on this team and was catching up to them. It was also built for a Gibbs-style offense, which has gone out of favor in the league. The league has changed a lot since Gibbs coached, and the Don Coryell offensive philosophy has gone by the wayside.

The only piece of the team where "Gibbs-style offense" matters is the offensive line and quarterback. The effect of the "square peg in round hole" theory is minimal for all other positions on offense. This is in direct contrast with Shanahan's preference for more athletic offensive linemen but there are plenty of teams that still use big bruisers in the Gibbs style.

Also, one or two drafts weren't going to save us. I think it was Shanahan himself who said that if you hit on 50% of your picks, you are doing pretty damn good. Most of the time, you will hit less than that. Given that also you will have a lot of players who don't fit in with the new coaching staff, there is going to be a lot of turnover.

Really, the litmus test was that when Zorn was fired and Shanahan took over the next year, we didn't see any dramatic improvement in the record of this team. People like to say that Vinny ruined this team, but really what he couldn't do was arrest the fall that was happening.

Here's the difference though. Here's a comparison of the state of the team in the two different years:

2008
Former 9-7 Team
Good Enough to Go 8-8 Under ZORN/CAMPBELL
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th

2010
Former 4-12 Team
Good Enough to Go 6-10 Under SHANAHAN/MCNABB(Grossman)
1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th

Shanahan inherited at best, the same team from 2008, except we all know they were WORSE and OLDER (****ed up offensive line, Campbell, brokedown Portis, slower Moss, slower Cooley, fast disintegrating defense). The only "improvements" would be possibly Orakpo, DeAngelo Hall, and Fred Davis. And he had an extremely limited arsenal of draft picks (which he for some reason decided to spend almost half of on McNabb). If he can turn that around in 3 drafts, who's to say we couldn't have turned the 2008 team around in one or two drafts?

Surely a competent GM wouldn't have looked at our old roster in 2008, particularly our offensive line, and said "Hmmm I'll draft Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Durant Brooks, and Colt Brennan!" Surely, if Zorn could get the team to 8-8, it's not unrealistic to say a better coach would have gotten the team to the playoffs? Surely, a competent GM would have then used the 2009 draft to continue to flesh out the team?

It just doesn't jive with me that the 2008 team was a hopeless situation when we saw something much worse in 2010.

[Yeen80]

2002 and 2003 were probably my lowest points over the past 20 years as a fan for the simple fact Spurrier gave us hope. I never had hope with Zorn, even after the 6-2 start. To be honest, I hadn't even heard of Jim Zorn until he was on board.

[Blue Collar Skins]

So having Zorn on this team was a great thing! Thank you Mr. Zorn!