W.P.: Dan Snyder says he fired Vinny Cerrato for letting him hire Jim Zorn(M.E.T.)

[Fight4RGIII]

Vinny is hilarious on 105.7 The Fan in Baltimore. HILARIOUS! If you listen to him, you're like, "How the **** did this guy run a NFL team?"

[NLC1054]

The purpose of the exercise wasn't to say, "This is how we should have drafted", it was to disprove the notion that Gibbs left our team in some unsalvageable hole.



Here we just have a difference of opinion so I can respect what you say. I believe the front office should have been able to react, you believe they should not reasonably be expected to be able to. OK.



The only piece of the team where "Gibbs-style offense" matters is the offensive line and quarterback. The effect of the "square peg in round hole" theory is minimal for all other positions on offense. This is in direct contrast with Shanahan's preference for more athletic offensive linemen but there are plenty of teams that still use big bruisers in the Gibbs style.



Here's the difference though. Here's a comparison of the state of the team in the two different years:

2008
Former 9-7 Team
Good Enough to Go 8-8 Under ZORN/CAMPBELL
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th

2010
Former 4-12 Team
Good Enough to Go 6-10 Under SHANAHAN/MCNABB(Grossman)
1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th

Shanahan inherited at best, the same team from 2008, except we all know they were WORSE and OLDER (****ed up offensive line, Campbell, brokedown Portis, slower Moss, slower Cooley, fast disintegrating defense). The only "improvements" would be possibly Orakpo, DeAngelo Hall, and Fred Davis. And he had an extremely limited arsenal of draft picks (which he for some reason decided to spend almost half of on McNabb). If he can turn that around in 3 drafts, who's to say we couldn't have turned the 2008 team around in one or two drafts?

Surely a competent GM wouldn't have looked at our old roster in 2008, particularly our offensive line, and said "Hmmm I'll draft Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Durant Brooks, and Colt Brennan!" Surely, if Zorn could get the team to 8-8, it's not unrealistic to say a better coach would have gotten the team to the playoffs? Surely, a competent GM would have then used the 2009 draft to continue to flesh out the team?

It just doesn't jive with me that the 2008 team was a hopeless situation when we saw something much worse in 2010.

1.) Let's just put the 2008 NFL Draft into it's proper context, shall we?

At one point, Devin Thomas was looked at as the best wide receiver from a physical standpoint in what was supposed to be a thin class at wide receiver. He was a redhot prospect coming off a big time season coming out of Michigan State, and he had all the physical tools you look for. He was the second receiver off the board (after Donnie Avery) largely because people thought he had considerable upside. Now, Devin ended up being lazy and his sloppy route running and bad attitude ended up getting him cut. But he was rated as high as the best receiver in the draft around draft time. No one really though the Thomas move was a bad one at that point, at all.

Fred Davis was the best tight end in the nation coming out in 2008. Again, he had a fringe-first round grade. Regardless of whether we had Cooley or not, if you were going strictly BPA, it's hard to say Fred wasn't the best player available at his spot, and even though it took him a while to get on the field because of Cooley. And once he re-dedicated himself, he earned his starting spot and supplanted Cooley.

Justin Tryon, Kareem Moore, and Chris Horton weren't that great, but they all had their moments. Horton in particular looked like he was really going to finally help fill the hole left by Sean before he got hurt and slid backwards, and Shanny and the game were high on Kareem Moore before he got injured.

Durant Brooks had won the Ray Guy Award for punting, was a second-team All-American and he was All-ACC. Chad Rinehart is still starting somewhere. His worst pick was Malcolm Kelly, where he overlooked Kelly's injury history and took him for his physical gifts.

If Joe Gibbs' problem was that he drafted for need at the expense of adding supreme physical talent, then Vinny's problem (amongst many...) was that he drafted the best physical players he could without an eye on what his team needed. In reality you need a balance of both to build a football team. We added a lot of young, physically gifted players without an eye on how they would fit into a team. The team needed to be rebuilt, but we were still in a win now mentality.


I also find it funny that you can't defend Gibbs without first knocking Mike Shanahan. Fact is that the team Mike inherited from Zorn was still, mostly, the team that Gibbs built. God knows we didn't add a whole lot to the football team in that time frame.

Like I said, Gibbs was a brilliant motivator and he could bring the best out of just about anyone, and he could motivate a subpar team to heights it shouldn't have been able to go. But he wasn't a great team builder. Vinny, Snyder and Gibbs together both helped and harmed each other. When Gibbs left unexpectedly, there was no one to fill the power vacuum at the top of the organization. Asking Vinny to be that guy was a mistake.

It was pretty much a blessing in disguise that it happened, anyway.

[AdmiralWaugh]

Did you not see that Mike Smith and John Harbaugh were hired in 2008?


.

Yes, I know that. And prior to being hired they were potential candidates just like Mora, Spagnulo, Schwartz, Meeks. Congratultions for the Falcons and Ravens for making a great choice. Perhaps they were in the mix for the Redskins, too. Only Snyder and Vinny know. My point was that because Gibbs gave no one a heads up that he was leaving, the team did not have the advantage it would have had if it had known earlier. Other teams hiring HCs knew where they were headed before the season ended.

[TheLongshot]

1.) Let's just put the 2008 NFL Draft into it's proper context, shall we?

At one point, Devin Thomas was looked at as the best wide receiver from a physical standpoint in what was supposed to be a thin class at wide receiver. He was a redhot prospect coming off a big time season coming out of Michigan State, and he had all the physical tools you look for. He was the second receiver off the board (after Donnie Avery) largely because people thought he had considerable upside. Now, Devin ended up being lazy and his sloppy route running and bad attitude ended up getting him cut. But he was rated as high as the best receiver in the draft around draft time. No one really though the Thomas move was a bad one at that point, at all.

I don't know if I'd call Thomas lazy or having a bad attitude, since he worked hard to become a good special teams player. The problem is that he never was able to pick up NFL route running, which to be honest he never needed to do at Michigan. That's often a reason why many talented guys never make it in the NFL. Also, I'd like to note that many of those 2nd round WRs flamed out in the NFL. Some, like Avery and Royal are barely hanging on and the only studs were Nelson and Jackson. (Remember how many people here were in love with Limas Sweed?)

Justin Tryon, Kareem Moore, and Chris Horton weren't that great, but they all had their moments. Horton in particular looked like he was really going to finally help fill the hole left by Sean before he got hurt and slid backwards, and Shanny and the game were high on Kareem Moore before he got injured.

Tryon gets a bad rap because he looked pretty awful early, but he learned a lot and by the end of his time here he was looking like a solid nickel guy. Unfortunately, he seems to have struggled in his other stops. Horton was a guy drafted to the system, and despite his interceptions, that wasn't going to be his strength. Unfortunately, like many late draft picks, he didn't develop. It happens.

Durant Brooks had won the Ray Guy Award for punting, was a second-team All-American and he was All-ACC. Chad Rinehart is still starting somewhere. His worst pick was Malcolm Kelly, where he overlooked Kelly's injury history and took him for his physical gifts.

Rinehart plays for the Bills and has gotten in the starting lineup a few times. Just as a note, his star was rising after a great performance at the Senior Bowl where many thought he could play RT in the NFL. That didn't work out for him.

As for Kelly, I always though he was worth the risk, particularly after you pick up Thomas. From what I saw in college, I think he would have been a good pro if he was able to get past the injuries. Teams roll the dice all the time on players. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

If Joe Gibbs' problem was that he drafted for need at the expense of adding supreme physical talent, then Vinny's problem (amongst many...) was that he drafted the best physical players he could without an eye on what his team needed. In reality you need a balance of both to build a football team. We added a lot of young, physically gifted players without an eye on how they would fit into a team. The team needed to be rebuilt, but we were still in a win now mentality.

Vinny's biggest issue with evaluating players was that it seemed like he had a blind eye to personality problems. There is little doubt at to the talent level of some of the players, but often they'd fail the mental test. I look at Brandon Lloyd as a prime example. Talented guy, but his head kept getting in the way.

[NLC1054]

I don't know if I'd call Thomas lazy or having a bad attitude, since he worked hard to become a good special teams player. The problem is that he never was able to pick up NFL route running, which to be honest he never needed to do at Michigan. That's often a reason why many talented guys never make it in the NFL. Also, I'd like to note that many of those 2nd round WRs flamed out in the NFL. Some, like Avery and Royal are barely hanging on and the only studs were Nelson and Jackson.

With Devin, I think it took him getting cut by us, then flaming out in Carolina where they were starved for receiver talent, and then going to the Giants to really help him "get it". For a dude like him, getting cut may have been the best thing for him. I actually think he might've had a role in Chicago's offense if he hadn't "retired" since Cutler loves throwing to guys his size and really he was probably the most physically gifted guy they had next to Marshall. I bag on the dude but I have to admit he carved out a nice niche for himself.


And I think my overall point was to show that, while the 2008 class was a pretty spectacular bomb, there was a some sort of method to Vinny's madness. Hindsight clouds people's minds, but all in all, if you look at it in the context of 2008, that was a pretty good draft if you're just basing it on a talent level perspective. He failed at a WHOLE LOT, but he deserves a little credit for having what had the potential to be a good draft class.

[Forehead]

• Firing Norv with a winning record
• Not keeping Herzog
• Not resigning Brad
• The Coles/flat screen drama
• Hirng the OBC
• The training camp entrance fee mess
• Hiring Zorn
• The Haynesworth contract
• Hanging on to Sam too long

What did I miss???

Has anyone mentioned when you had to pay for your season tickets with a Redskins approved Credit Card? I wasn't a holder back then, but I heard that was a fiasco.

Also, I don't think anyone should ever let TK forget the Kneel before Zorn sig he was sporting a few years ago.

[TheLongshot]

With Devin, I think it took him getting cut by us, then flaming out in Carolina where they were starved for receiver talent, and then going to the Giants to really help him "get it". For a dude like him, getting cut may have been the best thing for him. I actually think he might've had a role in Chicago's offense if he hadn't "retired" since Cutler loves throwing to guys his size and really he was probably the most physically gifted guy they had next to Marshall. I bag on the dude but I have to admit he carved out a nice niche for himself.

To be fair, he went in one year from being a starter to sitting on the back of the bench and not seeing any offense. I think anyone would be frustrated with that.

And I think my overall point was to show that, while the 2008 class was a pretty spectacular bomb, there was a some sort of method to Vinny's madness. Hindsight clouds people's minds, but all in all, if you look at it in the context of 2008, that was a pretty good draft if you're just basing it on a talent level perspective. He failed at a WHOLE LOT, but he deserves a little credit for having what had the potential to be a good draft class.

I also think that draft would have looked a bit better had Zorn succeeded here. Since he was a failure, some of those picks didn't make sense for the next coaching staff. Given that Shanahan's success rate isn't huge for his first two drafts, it probably would be in line with the average.

[NLC1054]

To be fair, he went in one year from being a starter to sitting on the back of the bench and not seeing any offense. I think anyone would be frustrated with that.

That was more about attitude and work ethic than anything though. On talent alone, Devin Thomas should've been able to beat out a guy like Joey Galloway, or Roydell Williams. But a combo of not really running the whole route tree and not putting all his effort into it hurt his chances, and Mike wasn't going to put him on the field if he didn't earn his job. He might've been frustrated, but I think if he'd put all his effort and time into it he would've gotten his chances to play on offense, even if he wasn't necessarily a "starter". Instead he started whining about it in the press.

Really he was a casualty of Mike trying to change the culture.