WP:Drop ‘Redskins’ name? Time to take a stand. (By Robert McCartney)

[SkinsHokieFan]

It is no longer an "emotional" issue for me. I have researched the hell out of this thing, the damn entomology of the word Redskin and I am just tired of the whole debate and issue now. Change the name to a 2 syllabal word (such as Spartans) so that you replace "Redskins" with "whatever" in Hail to the Redskins, keep the colors and move on

FYI if anyone is curious to read about Goddard's Research

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100201139.html

A Linguist's Alternative History of 'Redskin'

For many Americans, both Indian and otherwise, the term "redskin" is a grotesque pejorative, a word that for centuries has been used to disparage and humiliate an entire people, but an exhaustive new study released today makes the case that it did not begin as an insult.

Smithsonian Institution senior linguist Ives Goddard spent seven months researching its history and concluded that "redskin" was first used by Native Americans in the 18th century to distinguish themselves from the white "other" encroaching on their lands and culture.

When it first appeared as an English expression in the early 1800s, "it came in the most respectful context and at the highest level," Goddard said in an interview. "These are white people and Indians talking together, with the white people trying to ingratiate themselves."

It was not until July 22, 1815, that "red skin" first appeared in print, he found -- in a news story in the Missouri Gazette on talks between Midwestern Indian tribes and envoys sent by President James Madison to negotiate treaties after the War of 1812.

The envoys had rebuked the tribes for their reluctance to yield territory claimed by the United States, but the Gazette report suggested that Meskwaki chief Black Thunder was unimpressed: "Restrain your feelings and hear calmly what I say," he told the envoys. "I have never injured you, and innocence can feel no fear. I turn to all red skins and white skins, and challenge an accusation against me."

Link to rest

[AsburySkinsFan]

For whatever it's worth, here is what the Oxford English Dictionary Online says:

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/160483...om=Redskin#eid

Well, send that definition to the Navajo at Red Mesa. I bet they didn't know they were calling themselves the N-word all these years.

[Predicto]

Not really.. but if the people in question aren't offended, then how is it correct to change the name?

This is why I feel this way. if they did want to changed, no skin off my nose.. but they don't. So why press it?

It's almost as if these folks feel they're still a bit too savage to understand why they should be offended...

~Bang

There's a lot of Native American people out there. Perhaps only some of them are offended, but some are.

It may not be fair to turn the question around, but if it's really no skin off your nose whether or not the name gets changed, why do you always jump right in to vociferously defend the name in every one of these threads, and make fun of posters who question whether it is a good idea?

People on here act like you can't be a true fan of the team if you think that the word Redskin might be outmoded and insensitive. You are suddenly a traitor or something. We need to go to the bunkers over this!

I don't get it. Actually, I do get it, but it is frustrating.

[Morning Wood]

Change it to the "Washington Whities", and make the logo look like Mr. Rogers.

Then everybody can stfu already.

[Predicto]

Well, send that definition to the Navajo at Red Mesa. I bet they didn't know they were calling themselves the N-word all these years.

Well, now we are back to the Chris Rock use of the n-word as opposed to the Mel Gibson use of the n-word.

[Bang]

There's a lot of Native American people out there. Perhaps only some of them are offended, but some are.

It may not be fair to turn the question around, but if it's really no skin off your nose whether or not the name gets changed, why do you always jump right in to vociferously defend the name in every one of these threads, and make fun of posters who question whether it is a good idea?

People on here act like you can't be a true fan of the team if you think that the word Redskin might be outmoded and insensitive. You are suddenly a traitor or something. We need to go to the bunkers over this!

I don't get it. Actually, I do get it, but it is frustrating.

I jump in for the reason I mention.
Granted, polls are not a good measure. I readily accept that because I refuse to accept them in many other arguments.
But this issue has been around a long time, and there is no large groundswell of outrage among those who it's supposed to offend. If there was, after this much time, there'ed be at least a boycott or some sort of action.. but there never has been.
I usually always ask why they don't go after the Bills.. since they typically don't (and according to one Cleavlander here, they don't mess with the Indians too much).

There's no thought behind all of this outrage other than "This should not be! The word "SKIN" is not right!" .
Typically, the outraged are not the offended, and the offended are neither offended nor outraged.
This is where my issue lies.

~Bang

[AsburySkinsFan]

It may not be fair to turn the question around, but if it's really no skin off your nose whether or not the name gets changed, why do you always jump right in to vociferously defend the name in every one of these threads, and make fun of posters who question whether it is a good idea?

In the law just because something is "no skin off your nose" does that give a plaintiff the right to demand changes?

[Predicto]

It is no longer an "emotional" issue for me. I have researched the hell out of this thing, the damn entomology of the word Redskin and I am just tired of the whole debate and issue now. Change the name to a 2 syllabal word (such as Spartans) so that you replace "Redskins" with "whatever" in Hail to the Redskins, keep the colors and move on

That's kind of where I am too, I guess.

FYI if anyone is curious to read about Goddard's Research

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100201139.html


Link to rest

Interesting research but it doesn't really change anything. Word usage changes over time. People in the 1800s may have talked about "the coloreds" without per se meaning to insult black people, but we don't really do that anymore as a society.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well, now we are back to the Chris Rock use of the n-word as opposed to the Mel Gibson use of the n-word.

And yet there is not a SINGLE African American school that has named its mascot the N-word. Not one, as such this isn't seen by the Navajo of Red Mesa as being even remotely the same. When Chris Rock uses the word he knows that it is to be on edge for comedic and offensive issues, we see zero parallels with the N-Word that we do with Redskins, unless you're going to argue that Red Mesa is being intentionally antagonistic with its mascot.

[DjTj]

It is no longer an "emotional" issue for me. I have researched the hell out of this thing, the damn entomology of the word Redskin and I am just tired of the whole debate and issue now. Change the name to a 2 syllabal word (such as Spartans) so that you replace "Redskins" with "whatever" in Hail to the Redskins, keep the colors and move on

After we win the next 5 Super Bowls, we should just change the name to Washington Griffins. RG3's face can be on our helmets. Replace the feathers with dreadlocks.

[Predicto]

I jump in for the reason I mention.
Granted, polls are not a good measure. I readily accept that because I refuse to accept them in many other arguments.
But this issue has been around a long time, and there is no large groundswell of outrage among those who it's supposed to offend. If there was, after this much time, there'ed be at least a boycott or some sort of action.. but there never has been.
I usually always ask why they don't go after the Bills.. since they typically don't (and according to one Cleavlander here, they don't mess with the Indians too much).

There's no thought behind all of this outrage other than "This should not be! The word "SKIN" is not right!" .
Typically, the outraged are not the offended, and the offended are neither offended nor outraged.
This is where my issue lies.

~Bang

At the same time, the issue doesn't appear to be going away entirely, does it?

I don't want it to get to a boycott or protests or anything like that. I want my team to be admired and respected by all.

We changed the words of the fight song and it didn't kill us. Maybe it's time to find a more respectful word to refer to Native Americans too.

[skinsfan_1215]

For whatever it's worth, here is what the Oxford English Dictionary Online says:

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/160483...om=Redskin#eid

Thank you. My question is at what point did it begin to “frequently be considered offensive” and who decided that. The older examples they listed do not appear to be offensive.

[KAOSkins]

The Native Americans insulted by the term are equivalent to any loud minority - here they're joined by a separate group with guilt complexes, an audience and the figurative pen. Why should the NA version of this critter warrant more attention than others we like to deride? Because we mistreated their ancestors so badly? When the majority of NAs (anecdotal) in my experience are fans, it's appeasing the wrong group to target the name. If I thought most NAs were insulted I would agree to a change for that reason. They're not, it's a manufactured controversy and we shouldn't be giving it the time of day.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I want my team to be admired and respected by all.

Never gonna happen.

We changed the words of the fight song and it didn't kill us. Maybe it's time to find a more respectful word to refer to Native Americans too.

And when that doesn't satisfy, then what?
Logo?
Reparations?

[Bang]

At the same time, the issue doesn't appear to be going away entirely, does it?

I don't want it to get to a boycott or protests or anything like that. I want my team to be admired and respected by all.

We changed the words of the fight song and it didn't kill us. Maybe it's time to find a more respectful word to refer to Native Americans too.

You have a point, but I come back to who keeps bringing it up.

~Bang