Pope Benedict resigning Feb. 28, voting underway

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Let's cut to the chase: There is really no such thing as a "liberal" in the Catholic Church heirarchy, because the modern political ideas of liberalism and conservatism don't really apply to these matters. There is not one Cardinal who is going to push for the church to drop its opposition to abortion or to allow priests to marry or to allow female priests or anything in that manner. There are those who are more doctrinally liberal and those who are more doctrinally conservative.

And - in a counter-intuitive development - the younger leaders are more conservative than the older leaders. The older leaders still have a large stake in Vatican II whereas the younger leaders want to pull a lot of those reforms back.

---------- Post added February-11th-2013 at 02:45 PM ----------

I'm not Catholic but my brother-in-law is and while visiting him a few months ago, I skimmed through a book he had at the house. It's called Rediscover Catholicism and the little bit I read seemed interesting.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/redi...lly/1103809905

This seems to be the book many of the younger, disillusioned Catholics have been recommending to each other lately.

I don't know if it was worldwide, but in our diocese everyone was given a copy of that book.

It's an interesting read, though the first chapter is melodramatic nonsense.

There is a big push in the Church to bring back lapsed Catholics into the fold. I'm not going to actually confirm these numbers, but one of the leaders of this movement at my old parish said that that if Lapsed Catholic was a religious denomination, it would be the second largest denomination in the country. Keep in mind that the Catholics are counting everyone who was born and raised a Catholic and does not attend mass today in these numbers. So, if you were raised Catholic and converted to Baptist, you are still in the group.

There is a very strong belief in the church that part of the reason that there are so many ex-Catholics is because of Vatican II.

There is a war coming in the Catholic Church and the reformists are going to be routed. I suspect that part of the reason Benedict is leaving is because he is too old to deal with this issue now. I think he was originally selected as a compromise candidate - the most Conservative member of the Old Guard and someone who was extremely close to JPII. It's entirely possible that a lot of people - including Benedict himself - are surprised that he is still alive and don't want a placeholder any longer.

The Vatican has already fired its first shots in this war - shockingly at nuns, who do tend to be fairly liberal, believe it or not.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/us...cism.html?_r=0

[Predicto]

The Catholics are running scared because they know they can't compete with the more hip appeal of the Protestant denominations



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Kppx4bzfAaE#!


Dammit Why cant I embed youtube anymore aargh

---------- Post added February-11th-2013 at 01:03 PM ----------

dude
http://i.imgur.com/be7QiGk.jpg

Is it already time for Pope Paul again?

[JMS]

Let's cut to the chase: There is really no such thing as a "liberal" in the Catholic Church heirarchy, because the modern political ideas of liberalism and conservatism don't really apply to these matters. There is not one Cardinal who is going to push for the church to drop its opposition to abortion or to allow priests to marry or to allow female priests or anything in that manner. There are those who are more doctrinally liberal and those who are more doctrinally conservative.

You mean the American contemporary definitions. There aren't many I'll grant you that.. but that has less to do with the definition you ascribe to the terms and more to do with having more than 30 years of very conservative leadership appointing Cardinals bent on scaling back reforms undertaken after the last church counsel.

And - in a counter-intuitive development - the younger leaders are more conservative than the older leaders. The older leaders still have a large stake in Vatican II whereas the younger leaders want to pull a lot of those reforms back

.

There are no old leaders from VC2.. VC2 was 50 years ago. The reason why younger cardinals are more conservative than older cardinals is because frankly the Popes have gotten more conservative since 1965 in progression...
.




---------- Post added February-11th-2013 at 02:59 PM ----------

The Catholics are running scared because they know they can't compete with the more hip appeal of the Protestant denominations

Actually the Catholic church is growing pretty well, only in developing countries... It's not the Protestant's who are kicking our butts in the developed world, religion is down as a whole across Europe and the United States. I would argue it's really more about the Catholic Doctrine which has been growing more and more conservative and out of touch since our last big effort to make it more meaningful in the modern world...

John Paul was a very conservative Cardinal chosen from the remote corners of Christendom ( Behind the Iron Curtain in Poland )... Pope Benedict was even more conservative. Together they have basically recast the college of cardinals in their image, really away from what was main when they took over..

[Predicto]

Actually the Catholic church is growing pretty well, only in developing countries... It's not the Protestant's who are kicking our butts in the developed world, religion is down as a whole across Europe and the United States. I would argue it's really more about the Catholic Doctrine which has been growing more and more conservative and out of touch since our last big effort to make it more meaningful in the modern world...

John Paul was a very conservative Cardinal chosen from the remote corners of Christendom ( Behind the Iron Curtain in Poland )... Pope Benedict was even more conservative. Together they have basically recast the college of cardinals in their image, really away from what was main when they took over..

You see? When I can't embed videos, no one clicks my links.

[Jumbo]

Thanks, I couldn't recall any that resigned in a long while

I'm going with the longshot of a black female laywoman

Muslim lesbian. Or Tom Cruise. 50/50.

[JMS]

Muslim lesbian. Or Tom Cruise. 50/50.

Tom Cruise is not a Muslim...

---------- Post added February-11th-2013 at 03:30 PM ----------

You see? When I can't embed videos, no one clicks my links.

I can't watch video's here.. but you know me, that doesn't preclude me from having an opinion.

[dchogs]

The Catholics are running scared because they know they can't compete with the more hip appeal of the Protestant denominations



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=Kppx4bzfAaE#!


Dammit Why cant I embed youtube anymore aargh

wow. strong move for that church. i'm sure he's psyched that on the interwebs forever.

[Corcaigh]

The Onion is on point as usual:

Resigning Pope No Longer Has Strength To Lead Church Backward

[zoony]

Let's cut to the chase: There is really no such thing as a "liberal" in the Catholic Church heirarchy, because the modern political ideas of liberalism and conservatism don't really apply to these matters. There is not one Cardinal who is going to push for the church to drop its opposition to abortion or to allow priests to marry or to allow female priests or anything in that manner. There are those who are more doctrinally liberal and those who are more doctrinally conservative.

And - in a counter-intuitive development - the younger leaders are more conservative than the older leaders. The older leaders still have a large stake in Vatican II whereas the younger leaders want to pull a lot of those reforms back.

---------- Post added February-11th-2013 at 02:45 PM ----------



I don't know if it was worldwide, but in our diocese everyone was given a copy of that book.

It's an interesting read, though the first chapter is melodramatic nonsense.

There is a big push in the Church to bring back lapsed Catholics into the fold. I'm not going to actually confirm these numbers, but one of the leaders of this movement at my old parish said that that if Lapsed Catholic was a religious denomination, it would be the second largest denomination in the country. Keep in mind that the Catholics are counting everyone who was born and raised a Catholic and does not attend mass today in these numbers. So, if you were raised Catholic and converted to Baptist, you are still in the group.

There is a very strong belief in the church that part of the reason that there are so many ex-Catholics is because of Vatican II.

There is a war coming in the Catholic Church and the reformists are going to be routed. I suspect that part of the reason Benedict is leaving is because he is too old to deal with this issue now. I think he was originally selected as a compromise candidate - the most Conservative member of the Old Guard and someone who was extremely close to JPII. It's entirely possible that a lot of people - including Benedict himself - are surprised that he is still alive and don't want a placeholder any longer.

The Vatican has already fired its first shots in this war - shockingly at nuns, who do tend to be fairly liberal, believe it or not.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/us...cism.html?_r=0

For me, it was the barriers to entry and their ostracizing of anyone who is not Catholic. I suspect that's the same for many who marry outside Catholicism

At some point it just gets to be too much

When my in laws come to visit, and they are refused communion when they come to mass with me, makes me angry. I will always identify myself as Catholic on some level but the American in me thinks they can shove all their silly stupid laws directly up their ass.

And now their plan is to go more conservative in hopes to win people like me back. No thanks. If they want me back, the day I can step foot in their church and I will know that my wife and kids are welcome as I am, I will give it some thought. Until then, Catholic will just be a part of my family's history, no more.

Funny, first day I attended Methodist service, I was welcome. I was not asked if I was Methodist. They were simply glad to see me and invited me to communion.

Wonder what Jesus thinks? I bet he is glad the Catholics have all of those rules. I mean, it's not like he spent the better part of the Gospels railing against the Pharisees for the exact same thing. Because if he did, and I were part of the Catholic leadership, I might be concerned.

Also, their handling of the priest abuse scandals was disgraceful

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

For me, it was the barriers to entry and their ostracizing of anyone who is not Catholic. I suspect that's the same for many who marry outside Catholicism

Catholics are really really bad at evangelizing. It is a 2000 year old institution that has already relied on birth rates to sustain its membership.

I went through RCIA last year and I really enjoyed it. However, it was a year-long process that required weekly attendance at a 3-hour class and a Saturday commitment once a month or so. I had a great group and it was actually fun to do those things. However, that parish has brought in a new director who is this unpleasant nun. The committee who was on the team has fallen apart and there is no way that I could sit through that process now.

I'm a little annoyed with the Church right now, because the ten year old I adopted needs to go through two full years of CCE classes before she can have Confirmation and First Communion. The seven and four year olds don't need to go through that because of their ages.

If you are not born Catholic, it requires a massive level of commitment to become Catholic.

In a Baptist Church, it pretty much takes you standing up and saying "I want to do this" to be in the club. (There is generally a little bit more to it, but it is nothing compared to the hoops that Catholics must go through. I actually decided that I wanted to do RCIA a month after the classes started. The Nun in charge told me that I was going to have to wait until the next year to do it. I actually went to a priest on that and said, There is no guarantee that I am going to feel this same way in 11 months so you better hook me while you can).

[thebluefood]

In a Baptist Church, it pretty much takes you standing up and saying "I want to do this" to be in the club. (There is generally a little bit more to it, but it is nothing compared to the hoops that Catholics must go through. I actually decided that I wanted to do RCIA a month after the classes started. The Nun in charge told me that I was going to have to wait until the next year to do it. I actually went to a priest on that and said, There is no guarantee that I am going to feel this same way in 11 months so you better hook me while you can).

Actually, in my experience with the Baptist Church, that's exactly what it is. At the end of each service, there's an invitation to give your life to Jesus or join the church. Some churches require you go through a small class that goes over the history of that particular church and what it means to be a Christian; but those are pretty low key. After that, they dunk you and that's that.

Most mainline Protestant Denominations require a little more for membership, but from what I understand, it's nothing compared to the process to become Catholic. Seems pretty grueling.

[endzone_dave]

At last Sunday's Mass, the priest chanted much of the Mass and he sounded like a joke contestant on American Idol. The old guy opera singer wanna-be leading the hymns sounded like Kermit the Frog on his last legs. Then we had the joy of signing money pledge cards. I can't possibly see how any non-Catholic would want to be part of that.

[DisplacedRedskinsFan]

Catholics are really really bad at evangelizing. It is a 2000 year old institution that has already relied on birth rates to sustain its membership.

I went through RCIA last year and I really enjoyed it. However, it was a year-long process that required weekly attendance at a 3-hour class and a Saturday commitment once a month or so. I had a great group and it was actually fun to do those things. However, that parish has brought in a new director who is this unpleasant nun. The committee who was on the team has fallen apart and there is no way that I could sit through that process now.

I'm a little annoyed with the Church right now, because the ten year old I adopted needs to go through two full years of CCE classes before she can have Confirmation and First Communion. The seven and four year olds don't need to go through that because of their ages.

If you are not born Catholic, it requires a massive level of commitment to become Catholic.

In a Baptist Church, it pretty much takes you standing up and saying "I want to do this" to be in the club. (There is generally a little bit more to it, but it is nothing compared to the hoops that Catholics must go through. I actually decided that I wanted to do RCIA a month after the classes started. The Nun in charge told me that I was going to have to wait until the next year to do it. I actually went to a priest on that and said, There is no guarantee that I am going to feel this same way in 11 months so you better hook me while you can).

I do not care to list to Parish, but I am newly married and my one request was we get married in a Church.

We actually left that Parish because after 2 months of RCIA the Church said we needed the Holy Spirit to talk to us and to tell them (the RCIA Instructor) she was ready to proceed from the first part to the second part of the RCIA process (the year long class)

(Full disclosure: I went with her to the first class, and I probably should not have. Hindsight being 20/20)

We switched to another Parish, they actually asked me to join as much as possible (I could not becuase of a new job, but the point is they were welcoming), and got my wife her First Communion and Confirmation in 9 months. They also cared much more about making sure you made the decision for the right reasons, and that you understood your commitment, then making sure you took 12 calendar months to go through the process.

I feel torn because I am not sure I want to bring my kids into a Church I disagree with more and more each day. However I grew up Catholic, did CCD for 12 years, and was an alter server back in the early 90's at a tiny parrish. It was an amazing experience, and I even got to do some of the "food shelter" programs and it really opened my eyes to the world around me.

Sorry for rambling a bit

---------- Post added February-12th-2013 at 11:14 AM ----------

At last Sunday's Mass, the priest chanted much of the Mass and he sounded like a joke contestant on American Idol. The old guy opera singer wanna-be leading the hymns sounded like Kermit the Frog on his last legs. Then we had the joy of signing money pledge cards. I can't possibly see how any non-Catholic would want to be part of that.

I want to touch on this.

The Catholic Church HAS to be better when it comes to money.

I am 26 years old, my wife 24.

We went to a weekend retreat for the Church, and we both got A LOT of it. More so then either of us EVER expected.

The last day before we left (and before they gave out the certificates) they gave out "donation cards". They accepted cash, credit cards, or checks.

After a short spiel asking for donations we were told "Before we proceed for the evening we will count all donation cards to make sure we received one back from every couple"

My future wife was shocked, and a few of the non Catholics in the room literally had this dumbfounded look on their face.

EDIT - I left out this part. To take the class it cost $375.00. Room and board was included (you had a roommate, and I think 3 meals Saturday and 1 Sunday)

[DisplacedRedskinsFan]

double post. sorry

[endzone_dave]

CCD is another thing I'd like to see changed. I saw Sunday school at a mega-church one time and it looked fun for the kids. My son got quizzed this year on the difference between a cherubim and a seraphim.