Cooperstown Central HS Students Vote to Replace Redskins Nickname. AP via USA Today.

[Larry]

Good for Cooperstown Central High School. I'm sure all the students there are so greatly involved in Native American affairs and won't stop until they get justice.

I do applaud them.

Yeah, High School kids like to do feel-good crusades. They "save the planet" by recycling plastic water bottles for two weeks, or installing one solar power panel on top of the gym.

Did they actually accomplish much? No.

But should the spirit and the effort be afforded respect, anyway? I think so. That kind of desire to improve the world, even by tiny, infinitesimal bits, is a characteristic that should be encouraged by society.

I don't agree with their decision. But I still respect it, anyway. Despite the fact that it's a misguided, feel-good, gesture.

[Bang]

I do applaud them.

Yeah, High School kids like to do feel-good crusades. They "save the planet" by recycling plastic water bottles for two weeks, or installing one solar power panel on top of the gym.

Did they actually accomplish much? No.

But should the spirit and the effort be afforded respect, anyway? I think so. That kind of desire to improve the world, even by tiny, infinitesimal bits, is a characteristic that should be encouraged by society.

I don't agree with their decision. But I still respect it, anyway. Despite the fact that it's a misguided, feel-good, gesture.

totally agree with all of that, and the fact that it's their decision, made by them, about their own school.

~Bang

[DC9]

Interesting..
how does: "That's the wonderful thing about having our own free will and personal opinion. There are members of my tribe who are very steadfast and who say, "Enough's enough -- it's time to put a stop to this." And there are those who see, as I do, the opportunities for outreach and healthy dialogue. I celebrate that diversity of opinion, because I think it makes us more well-rounded."

jive with: " If we're going to have this debate and bring it to a positive conclusion, we'd be doing ourselves a disservice by limiting it. "

What is his idea of a positive conclusion?
seems to me it sounds like he's already made up his mind what it should be, regardless of how "well rounded" his discussion is.
I hear, "That's nice, but I'll tell you what to be offended over."
His two sentences prove he's just giving lip service to those who disagree with him.

He also says "We all live in this wonderful globe together. If there's a negative impact on any one group, that impacts all of us as a whole. I think everyone, collectively, can have a voice in this. We have many brothers and sisters in various minority groups who know what it means to be marginalized, so of course we welcome their voices.
and ignores that the majority of his people don't feel the negative impact.
In other words, their opinion marginalizes HIS, and he doesn't like it. He feels that it's their opinion that should be marginalized, and he does EXACTLY that.
So what he should say is "If I perceive a negative impact, i assume that is negative for everyone"

Again: "I will tell you what to be offended over."

~Bang

I know, it's oxymoronic. And you don't really get any direct answers.

[RFKFedEx]

Doug Williams was just discussing the issue when asked by Colin on The Herd. Doug tried to remain neutral. He stated that the issue is 'tough for him', and he thinks 'there should be change', yet he cited FSU and how some members of Seminole Nation 'like' the name and theme.

Nothing too controversial from Doug, just a little nugget of interest to the thread.

[pjfootballer]

Which is probably why PJF gets miffed when he's called a Yankee for being from Maryland, which is below the line.

Yeah, I should have used the word annoyed and not offended when they call me a Yankee. Nevermind that damn baseball team doesn't help either. I wouldn't want to be associated with anything that has to do with the NY Yankees.

[Boss_Hogg]

Please make it stop

[RFKFedEx]

Now, answer my question. I've asked you this about 5 times over these threads, and it's ducked every time.
Why no problem with the Washington half of the name?

Probably bc I've never known anybody who was a slave.


On a related note,

I know an actual Native who I'll call JG. JG gave me about the name back in our HS years together. I used to clown him for it, figuring he was just using it against me bc he's a Steelers fan. I too, used to cite the same justifications as others have offered in these threads. I began to take JG a bit more seriously once we hit our 30s, and I learned more about US history. JG grew up in NOVA but lives in OK today with his family, in a tribal community. JG’s voice carries a lot more credibility on the issue than mine, and it helps that he literally looks like our logo in case anybody wants to question his street cred. JG will tell you that he has Native friends who like our name and theme, but they're a shrinking minority.

I also have a family friend who we've known since the 1960s, I'll call him CS. CS has been a member of our fanbase since the GPM years. CS grew up a few blocks from Griffith Stadium in the Shaw neighborhood, where he resides today. CS remained loyal to the B&G while many of his family, friends, and neighbors flocked to the Cowboys in wake of GPM's politics in the early 60s. CS has no real ties to our name or logo today other than fandom, but I mention him bc he's changed the way I think about our fans. When I see the monument to GPM outside of RFK today, I think of our elder AA fans like CS who proudly sport our colors; despite old wounds from his own lifetime. I appreciate those fans.

[youngchew]

Yeah, High School kids like to do feel-good crusades. They "save the planet" by recycling plastic water bottles for two weeks, or installing one solar power panel on top of the gym.

Did they actually accomplish much? No.
.

fair enough, and Yes I guess good for them (honestly).

But the portion of your response I quoted was mostly the point I was trying to make. With all the stuff going on with the Washington Redskins name in the media, they just hopped on with the situation and tried to "make a difference."

[DC9]

I wouldn't say the only one, but you are a very small (tiny) minority. Frankly if they changed the name I'd consider any supporter of this new team to be traitors to the Redskins. So I already look upon Redskins fans that would be ok with a name change, with a very jaundiced eye (in other words I believe they really should find another team to root for).

I'm not sure how I missed this opportunity early on... but that's awesome.

[Tweedr01]

Probably bc I've never known anybody who was a slave.

What a pitiful way to duck a question. So, basically because you don't know any slaves, you have no problem being racist to black folk, is that the gist of it? Do you know any NA's from the colonization era?

---------- Post added February-20th-2013 at 02:18 PM ----------

I know an actual Native who I'll call JG. JG gave me about the name back in our HS years together. I used to clown him for it, figuring he was just using it against me bc he's a Steelers fan. I too, used to cite the same justifications as others have offered in these threads. I began to take JG a bit more seriously once we hit our 30s, and I learned more about US history. JG grew up in NOVA but lives in OK today with his family, in a tribal community. JG’s voice carries a lot more credibility on the issue than mine, and it helps that he literally looks like our logo in case anybody wants to question his street cred. JG will tell you that he has Native friends who like our name and theme, but they're a shrinking minority.

I also have a family friend who we've known since the 1960s, I'll call him CS. CS has been a member of our fanbase since the GPM years. CS grew up a few blocks from Griffith Stadium in the Shaw neighborhood, where he resides today. CS remained loyal to the B&G while many of his family, friends, and neighbors flocked to the Cowboys in wake of GPM's politics in the early 60s. CS has no real ties to our name or logo today other than fandom, but I mention him bc he's changed the way I think about our fans. When I see the monument to GPM outside of RFK today, I think of our elder AA fans like CS who proudly sport our colors; despite old wounds from his own lifetime. I appreciate those fans.

So, lol, you are saying because he's got dark skin, he's got NA street cred. HAHAHAHAHA, gotcha, ok. So when my Pakistani wife and I go to Puerto Rico and everyone thinks she's from PR because of her skin color, does that mean she has street cred? Dude, you know nothing about minorities at all, not a thing. How about you just leave the qualifications to, you know, the NA leaders? Your strawman argument, literally fabricated out of thin air comes across as just that. You sound like you are just making stuff up to prove your point.

[Larry]

I know an actual Native who I'll call JG. JG gave me about the name back in our HS years together. I used to clown him for it, figuring he was just using it against me bc he's a Steelers fan. I too, used to cite the same justifications as others have offered in these threads. I began to take JG a bit more seriously once we hit our 30s, and I learned more about US history. JG grew up in NOVA but lives in OK today with his family, in a tribal community. JG’s voice carries a lot more credibility on the issue than mine, and it helps that he literally looks like our logo in case anybody wants to question his street cred. JG will tell you that he has Native friends who like our name and theme, but they're a shrinking minority.

Good point.

However, my response is, if that's the case, if the number of Natives who are offended by the name has gone from 7% to more than half, then how come the people pushing these lawsuits haven't run another poll?

I can't speak for the team, or other supporters. But I've said, I think in this thread, that to me, if the number of offended has merely doubled, from 7% to 15%, then as far as I'm concerned, the tide is shifting, and the team should recognize that. I don't even demand that the majority has to be offended. I'd advocate changing if the percentage were changing in a big way.

If the name really is offensive to a significant number of people, then there's a simple and cheap way of establishing that.

Because, until they do that, until they run another poll, they're always going to be simply people making claims, arguing against people who have actual facts.

[RFKFedEx]

What a pitiful way to duck a question. So, basically because you don't know any slaves, you have no problem being racist to black folk, is that the gist of it? Do you know any NA's from the colonization era?

Bang asked me the question and I gave the board an answer. Why would that make me a racist? Negative on Natives from Colonial/imperial America.

---------- Post added February-20th-2013 at 02:18 PM ----------



So, lol, you are saying because he's got dark skin, he's got NA street cred. HAHAHAHAHA, gotcha, ok.

My friend JG is the son of one of America's former leading atty's on Native affairs in Washington from the 1970-2000s. JG played on the Iroquois International lax team in college and he remains involved in tribal affairs in his home town today. I think he has some cred on the name issue, which is why I started to take him seriously. He doesn't preach about the issue to strangers, but if anybody asks his opinion, he's happy to share. Again, he knows that not all Natives agree with the stance to remove Native imagery from sports teams.

[nonniey]

Good point.

However, my response is, if that's the case, if the number of Natives who are offended by the name has gone from 7% to more than half, then how come the people pushing these lawsuits haven't run another poll?

Larry I guess the number was actually 9% From 2004 polling firm Annenberg.

"Most Indians Say Name of Washington “Redskins” Is Acceptable
While 9 Percent Call It Offensive, Annenberg Data Show
Most American Indians say that calling Washington’s professional football team the “Redskins”
does not bother them, the University of Pennsylvania’s National Annenberg Election Survey
shows.
Ninety percent of Indians took that position, while 9 percent said they found the name
“offensive.” One percent had no answer. The margin of sampling error for those findings was
plus or minus two percentage points.

[nonniey]

My friend JG is the son of one of America's former leading atty's on Native affairs in Washington from the 1970-2000s. JG played on the Iroquois International lax team in college and he remains involved in tribal affairs in his home town today. I think he has some cred on the name issue, which is why I started to take him seriously. He doesn't preach about the issue to strangers, but if anybody asks his opinion, he's happy to share. Again, he knows that not all Natives agree with the stance to remove Native imagery from sports teams.

Does he know that the vast majority (VAST) are not offended by the name? (BTW I have worn my Redskins shirts many times to reservations and not once has anyone said they were upset, only the opposite there were lot of Native-Americans that liked the shirts and pronounced themselves as Skins fans).

[Larry]

Larry I guess the number was actually 9% From 2004 polling firm Annenberg.

Ah. I was going from memory. I thought it was 90/7/3.