The Bible and Christianity

[skinsfan51]

Over the last few days there have been some pretty intense discussions about creation/evolution, the Bible, Christianity, etc. It just goes to show that these issues are important to all of us and important in the lives of all people.

It seems that the Bible, in particular and Christianity as a whole, has been brought under fire. "Does God exist?" "Is the Bible true?" "Can the Bible be believed factually and literally?" "Are there moral absolutes?" Those are very good questions that I believe have answers. That's why I want mention a resource that has greatly helped me find the answers to these and many other such "life" questions.

<u>Ravi Zacharias International Ministries</u> is a <b>Christian apologetics</b> organization. What is "Christian apologetics"? Simply put, an "apologist" is someone who defends, intellectually, a particular belief or worldview. So a Christian apologist provides evidence for Christianity and the Bible.

Ravi Zacharias was born in India. His apologetics ministry has become worldwide and he has traveled and spoken in over 50 across the globe in defense of the Christian faith (http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/ravi.php). Most of the time he speaks in universities here in the United States to mostly non-Christian audiences. I want to encourage you to take the time to download some of his messages (each about 20 minutes long) and listen to what this man has to say about life and religion, etc.

Hey, everyone seems to be looking for "proof." Here is a resource that provides it to a great degree. If you are prone to just mock, then we'll all know the depth of your desire to really know truth. Some of you accuse Christians of not thinking for themselves. Then I CHALLENGE you especially to listen to this man and see if Christians don't think. I trust he'll give YOU some things to think about.

Here is the URL to his radio ministry <b>"Let My People Think"</b> where you can download his messages: http://www.gospelcom.net/rzim/radio/lmpt.php

Click "Let My People Think" Program Archive" and then choose any message title you like. You can download the mp3 or listen to it directly via "surestream."

Some message titles include: "Worship: A Clue to Meaning in Life"; "Who Are You God?"; "Unplugging Truth in a Morally Suicidal Culture"; "The Constancy of God"; "What Happened After God's Funeral?"; "Jesus Among Other Gods"; "Who Is Jesus? (And Why Does It Matter?)"; "Is Atheism Dead, Is God Alive?"; "Is There Meaning In Evil And Suffering?"; "Absolute Truth In Relative Terms"; AND MANY, MANY MORE!

I KNOW you'll find answers to some of life's most difficult questions. God bless.

[Destino]

That's a pretty good link. Hard to get to the info you want because the site design is poor but it makes logical arguments for various common topics.

I disagree with some of the essays but for the most part they are fairly well written.

BTW - I don't think the bible was meant to be taken entirely literally.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Destino
That's a pretty good link. Hard to get to the info you want because the site design is poor but it makes logical arguments for various common topics.

I disagree with some of the essays but for the most part they are fairly well written.

BTW - I don't think the bible was meant to be taken entirely literally.

I agree that the site design is poor.

[BG]

Why do they have to use spyware?

That sucks. All I wanted was to see what's up, and now I am bombarded with crap.

[Om]

Equal time, 51?

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/agnosticism/

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/ (Comic relief)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/

http://www.nsf.gov/

The Demon Haunted World – C. Sagan

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Om
Equal time, 51?

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/agnosticism/

http://www.apatheticagnostic.com/ (Comic relief)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/darwin/

http://www.nsf.gov/

The Demon Haunted World – C. Sagan

Sure, but with each link it just provides other links. What specifically do you want me to read about?

BTW, I thought it quite funny to read the guy's comments at the angelfire site about Biblical Archeology: "There is a fairly good resource section here. I am concerned, however, that they might be looking for artifacts that support their beliefs rather than an unbiased search for the truth."

He says that as if evolutionists don't do the same exact thing. Wow! LOL. Does he propose to try and convince me that he is on "an unbiased search for the truth"? Ah, only if he finishes the sentence: "An unbiased search for the truth <i>as long as it lines up with my belief system."</i>

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by IAMBG
Why do they have to use spyware?

That sucks. All I wanted was to see what's up, and now I am bombarded with crap.

Do you mean the form you are asked to fill out before being allowed to listen? That's pretty new, but I've never received any email spam from them, and I've listened for the last year or more. I think it's safe.

[mardi gras skin]

Originally posted by Destino
BTW - I don't think the bible was meant to be taken entirely literally.

No one does. It kind of annoys me when some Christians wear "I believe the whole Bible is literally true" on their sleeve like its some kind of litmus test for REAL Christians.

2 Samuel 22:3
My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn of my salvation.

No one thinks God is literally some cave we hide in. Its not literally true. There's poetry, verse, hyperbole, analogy, parable. Lots of stuff not intended to take literally. But there's also a lot of straight forward instruction, history, letters, etc. that was intended to be taken literally. Most of its not to hard distinguish.

[codeorama]

Originally posted by mardi gras skin


No one does.

yes, some do. Thats were major disagreement occur.

[Om]

Originally posted by skinsfan51


Sure, but with each link it just provides other links. What specifically do you want me to read about?

BTW, I thought it quite funny to read the guy's comments at the angelfire site about Biblical Archeology: "There is a fairly good resource section here. I am concerned, however, that they might be looking for artifacts that support their beliefs rather than an unbiased search for the truth."

He says that as if evolutionists don't do the same exact thing. Wow! LOL. Does he propose to try and convince me that he is on "an unbiased search for the truth"? Ah, only if he finishes the sentence: "An unbiased search for the truth <i>as long as it lines up with my belief system."</i>

No one thing in particular I want you to read. Other than Sagan, maybe---I'd love to talk to you again after you'd read it. Mostly just opening the door on the OTHER side of this hall. I've always found a little cross-ventilation a healthy thing ... opening only one window can make things a bit stuffy.

Loved it when you said this, btw:

Ah, only if he finishes the sentence: "An unbiased search for the truth <i>as long as it lines up with my belief system."

My kingdom for a mirror.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by mardi gras skin


No one does. It kind of annoys me when some Christians wear "I believe the whole Bible is literally true" on their sleeve like its some kind of litmus test for REAL Christians.

2 Samuel 22:3
My God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn of my salvation.

No one thinks God is literally some cave we hide in. Its not literally true. There's poetry, verse, hyperbole, analogy, parable. Lots of stuff not intended to take literally. But there's also a lot of straight forward instruction, history, letters, etc. that was intended to be taken literally. Most of its not to hard distinguish.

I agree with you, but with a caution. The Bible is full of miracles, too. I just read the feeding of the 5,000+ with my children this morning out of the book of Mark. I actually took five loaves of bread and two frozen fish out of the freezer and put it on the table to illustrate just how much of a miracle it was. They'll remember that now for a long time.

My point is that the Bible is to be taken literally if at all possible. But that interpretation must not be limited to our own reasoning. God is outside of our sphere of time, space and understanding. He created those things and he created us, so He is not bound by them. Therefore, when reading the Bible it is VERY important to retain the context of a particular statement and to compare it with other scripture to determine what is being said. It's obvious from 2 Samuel that David is not saying that God is a literal piece of shale or sandstone. It's a figure of speech. But, when the Bible says "In the beginning God created...," or that there was a worldwide flood in Noah's day, there is no indication that those statements are meant to be taken in any way other than literally.

So we have to be very careful about what we say is literal and what we say is not literal. Just because something doesn't make sense doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's where faith comes in.

[jbooma]

My issue with taking the bible completely literally is some of the stories are just that stories, they were created to get the people during that time excited to do something.

The issues we have today is some people do take every word seriously, what we need to do is take the "meaning" of the story and use that, not the exact words.

Because of this some churches allow women to be preachers, and others don't.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by jbooma
My issue with taking the bible completely literally is some of the stories are just that stories, they were created to get the people during that time excited to do something.

The issues we have today is some people do take every word seriously, what we need to do is take the "meaning" of the story and use that, not the exact words.

Because of this some churches allow women to be preachers, and others don't.

But upon what premise or authority can you say that were or are just stories? Are we more "enlightened" than those dumb people 3,000 years ago? Has some evidence been found to show without a doubt that we can't take the stories literally? If it seems from the context that it was clearly meant to be literal at that time, why would be up and change it to not literal now? Just because we feel like it? That's not logical.

I agree that we can extract spiritual meanings and applications from the stories. That IS one of their purposes. But there is also no reason to doubt the story of Jonah and the Whale or feeding of the 5,000, etc. Hey, for many, many years skeptics laughed off the story about the falling walls of Jericho. Then archeologists found the ruins and determined that it happend EXACTLY as the Bible said. OOPS!! It's been awful quiet around those skeptic tables since that find. But it hasn't taught them that they should actually think before mocking the other Bible stories. Over time they will be justified, too, if God sees fit.

[codeorama]

Here's another way of looking at some of the miracles. Not that I'm saying this is the only way to look at them, but I read this once and it made sense to me.

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, did he really bring him back to life literally or did he enlighten him with knowledge? Was he spiritually dead? Then with this knowledge, "brought back to life"?

When Jesus turned water into wine, was that a metaphor for giving people (water) spiritual knowledge and knowledge of a better life, thus making them better...(wine).

It all depends on how you look at it.
Does that lessen Jesus in any way? No, not at all.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by codeorama
Here's another way of looking at some of the miracles. Not that I'm saying this is the only way to look at them, but I read this once and it made sense to me.

When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, did he really bring him back to life literally or did he enlighten him with knowledge? Was he spiritually dead? Then with this knowledge, "brought back to life"?

When Jesus turned water into wine, was that a metaphor for giving people (water) spiritual knowledge and knowledge of a better life, thus making them better...(wine).

It all depends on how you look at it.
Does that lessen Jesus in any way? No, not at all.

Well, the only source we have of those stories is the Bible itself, right? So when trying to interpret a verse or series of verses all we have to go by is what is actually said. From there we either believe it or disbelieve it based on what we read.

In the story of Lazarus (John 11) we read these words: "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." (11:14) Now, if you ever want a more "plain" statement, you'll not find it. Jesus said PLAINLY. The Greek word for "dead" means "dead" (Gr: Apothnesko). So to try and look at it some other way and say, "Well, maybe it just means that Jesus enlightened Lazarus" is incorrect. There is no way to get that interpretation from the text, and that is ALL we have to go by. (BTW, when was the last time a guy was removed from grave clothes because he was enlightened?)

The same goes for the water to wine story. The spiritual application you made is a good one, and it works. But it doesn't take away from the story being real. The text is all we have to go by and it says clearly that it was water and then wine. The Greek transliterated word for "water" (Hudor) means water. The transliterated word for "wine" (Oinos) means wine. What authority do I have to interpret it any other way?

See, the problem is not with what the Bible says. That's pretty clear. The problem is our believing it. If we can't quite believe it then we just say, "Well, there must be some other meaning." That's where faith comes in. I can't prove Jesus turned water into wine at this point. I wasn't there. I believe it by faith based upon what I know about the Bible and have learned about its integrity over the years.