Off Topic : Middle East.

[Mickalino]

I'm going to venture into the political arena here, because there's a question that's been burning in my mind for a long time, and most of you all here are more knowledgable on politics than myself. I've noticed over a period of time, that there seems to be an extreme bias against Israel in the Mid-East, and from countries outside that region. Basically it seems that whenever Israel is attacked by Palestine, that no big deal is made about it. But when Israel retaliates in self-defense, they are scorned and condemned as being inhumane and viscious by almost every surrounding country. The ironic thing is I have never seen Israel attack Palestine without being provoked first. But when they do respond in like manner, they're rebuked and distanced by their so-called Arab allies. I realize that there is a whole lot more fueling this conflict than simply violence, and that being the whole "territory" issue, which I still don't understand. And that's why I'm inquiring here. But the nations that criticize Israel, aren't criticizing their territorial issues, but rather Israels aggression, which to me seems justified. It seems that those nations such as Egypt, aren't really their allies, and they're looking for an excuse for them to distance themselves from Israel, by using Israel's so-called aggression as a reason. It basically seems like Israel is being set up. They're being provoked and forced to attack, so they look like the bad guy, and lose all those "allies" in the Mid-East. What is Israel supposed to do, just lie down, and allow all those maniac kamikaze bicycle bombers to spread terror all around their country ? I'm just sick of hearing about how evil Israel is, when they're simply dishing out what was initially dished at them. Am I missing something here, or is there some kind of conspiracy against Israel in the Mid-East ?

[ by Mick on May 20, 2001.]

[indyskinsfan]

Here's what I noticed also. Many people with direct family in Israel that are Jewish, Hebrew, whatever don't usually have opinions immediately following an incident over there, but I can walk by a person, especially at work, and he can immediately drum up the anwswer as to who did what first, without a single gathering of the "real" facts, not fabricated ones.

I read just the other day that a U S embassy representative had to admonish a statement from some Palestinian leader, high up too, that it is "directly the United States that is responsible for the incidents between the Palestinians and the Israelites". Duhhhhhhhh! I disagree also.

How in the heck with our people way over here, our government limited by the Muslim radicals and terrorist movements against all Americans, and the use of American dollars to "prop" Arafat and his regime up can we be responsible for groups of rock throwers at people praying somewhere before they arrived. How can we be responsible for car bombings, assisinations by theie "selected, hand picked Guards and terrorist of Arafat. We don't tell Israel what to do with their military, and they dam* sure won't tell us what to do with ours. What a bunch of truth twisters to gain global support of the Arab speaking nations, who incidently should wake up and realize, Arafat has no intentions for peace in Israel, as long as Christianity exists. Remember, Islam's belief that Christ is nothing more than a prophet is a stickler with them and the Christians. Christ is not respected or seen as the Son of God. For aetheists it is understandable where they are coming from. They basically don't believe there's a god at all. For Christ to be a prophet and that's all, would mean that history would have to be written all over again.

Clue that is answered: Nation shall rise up against nation.
The cost of wheat will be astronimical (the role played in the Mideast with oil is also affecting the "production" of the very hand that often feeds them. So I guess a prophet would also pinpoint that he will set his foot at the mount of olives. Now which "prophet" is going to do that?
How can a prophet rise "himself" from the dead. He cannot, but being one and the same (for those that cannot understand that the Holy Ghost can emit from the Living God, a bearing of himself to exist with man on the earth and after the fullfillment of the promise to rise, ascend a newer being to be beside him, not like a sharecropper, but as part of the divine order of God, that man may be redeemed from this current ignorance and yes arrogance. The "jealousy" of Cain is upon those that hate Christ and will stop at nothing to stamp out his name. Now as far as Israel is concerned, it is no longer filled with the "original" Hebrew people and has since been diluted hundreds of times in most her. Yet there remains all the coming events that ONLY God could have known and the trembling liars knees will be heard around the world.

No mere man could even possibly forseen what we are experiencing or are about to see, (I hope that much I don't). Yes prophets are inspired by God, but in all fairness of your own senses, has there been such a man since? Why is Islam a religion born
"after" Christ, yes disavows him immediately, thus giving away their true nature. See God gave us nature to do the "instinctive" and natural things we'd do. However, in order to even have a tongue or for your mercy, there had to be a redemption, for the sins are too great of this world's history for this "physical" body to be even be near god. No man can be in God's presence after the events of the Old Testament, except through divine intervention and that is through a living source that is part of God, yet gathered the grain among us to wash us clean enough to be in God's presence.

I realize what I am saying now and of course this means I have acknowledged the acceptance of the Living God and the Son, Christ. So be it.

I will never worship a man that worships a man, that worships a man. I will worship my God, who created man, and sent his only Begotten Son, Jesus (Yoshua) Christ.

Those people fighting over there are nothing more than instruments of hate and anger back and forth.
One of these will even send some fool to find me and kill me
just because I believe and wrote this. Some god they have huh (just a man with a turban).

Neither represents the true Love of God, yet both are a vacuum, sucking the whole world to her state fate, near the valley of death. Which by Christ's words is called Armageddon.

[Terry]

Of course there's a conspiracy against Israel in the middle east.

Israel was 'created' out of an exisiting political entity - Palestine. The current occupants of that land were disposessed, their land taken from them after owning it for generations, and they were turned into refugees.

Israel was created after the NAZI horrors of WWII and the Holocaust. Sympathetic european countries determined that the Jews should have land, and a political entity of their own in their traditional homeland of the bible. An exceedingly noble gesture.

But to perform one good deed, they perpetuated a bad one on the Palestinians who lived in the area of historic Israel. They forced them off their land and turned them into refugees, then turned their back on them.

That's the root of everything.

It's easy to side with Israel in this. The small, plucky counrty surrounded by enemies that hate it's very existence and who wish it total annihilation. Those same arab countries attacking it twice, yet being beaten back each time, now resorting to geurilla and terrorist attacks against it.

And it's hard not do dislike Arafat, an ex terrorist who wants not only total control of any legal Palestinian entity, but also the destruction of Israel. And certainly groups like Hamas, and leaders like Quadaffi, Hussein, Assad, et al are not sympathetic figures, to say the least.

And then, the US has had troubles of our own with different Arab and Moslem entities, both political and otherwise. These are due to religious, cultural, and political differences.

So we tend not to sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, we lump them with the stereotypical moslem extremist arabs who hate everything that isn't fundamental Islam, and only seem to care about anything over there when oil is at stake.

Our culture has demonized arabs and militant Islam, to the point of stereotype and carricature.

.

But underneath all that is a kernel of truth - the disposessed Palestinians, many still first generation, who have seen their ancestral homes taken from them, their lives ruined, their villages razed and bulldozed, and forced into a refugee life with no legal status or representation.

And there is another truth, the arab/israeli conflict is just part of a larger picture that features the US and it's thirst for oil and middle eastern stability (read stable oil production environment) entering cozy relationships with regimes that are not democratic to say the least - monarchies, dictatorships, fuedal structures. These regimes have done nothing for the ordinary people they rule, suppress their democratic rights, and have left them in poverty while untold wealth pours into their coffers from the industrialized world.

To keep their people's atention focussed off their own plight and political impotency, those regimes need a bogeyman so their people can release their political frustration. The US, and it's middle eastern surrogate, Israel, have served nicely. Even fundamental Islam gave them something else to think about, as long as it's retribution is directed against the west.

.

So what do we have? The plight of the Palestinians is basically a polical and cutlural football being kicked around by people who could really give a rat's arse about them - including their own leadership.

As for Israel, it's not blameless here. It should cease moving onto current Palestinian land, moving out the palestinian population, bulldozing everything there, and then building jewish settelements, right now.

And for us? There are no easy answers. Much as we might like to take sides, that's the last thing those people need. Much as we'd like to have one side be right and the other wrong, so we can satisfy our own needs for black and white problems with black and white solutions, the current situation doesn't allow that.

There are no good guys and bad guys here. Just frustrated people in a terrible situation, many being predictably irrational.

The US is probably the only entity that can act as an honest broker, but there is so much prejudice and suspicion to overcome first, one has to wonder if it's at all possible.

[Rdskns2000]

Indy, you shouldn't speak about other faiths that you don't understand. Being a Muslim, I was incensed a little at your stereotyping of Muslims.

Each religion has their beliefs. Some similiarities and some major differences. After all they are 3 major religions in the world. If you remain true to your beliefs: whether it be Christianity, Judiasm, or Islam; you will be rewarded by God. If God wanted one religion; there would be one religion. Each religion thinks they are superior to the other. I just say be true to one's beliefs.


AS for the middle east, it's not a simple thing. You have two groups of people claiming the same piece of land and it's complicated by the fact each major religion has Jeruseleum or surrounding area as a holy area vital to their religion.

Will Jews and Muslims ever get along? Who knows. Both religions actually are more similiar than different.

Will their be peace in the Middle East? Not in our lifetimes. Until both sides realizes that neither side is going anywhere and they have to live with each other; there will be no peace in middle east. They have realize they can live side by side and their can be room for both people to have their holy sites in the same area.


The only reason U.S. is worried about a Middle East war isn't because of a threat to Israel.U.S. will not let anything happen to Israel. It's because Irsael's Arab neighbors have OIL that America wants. If it wasn't for that; U.S. would be 100% on the Israeli side and be sending troops if they needed it.

As for a war in the middle east; there will be one and there needs to be one. You don't have to worry about the winner: Israel will win easily. Personally, I think there has to be such devastation that a war would bring: on both sides. That would finally wake up the peoples there that they can't continue to fight each other and must live together.


Noone can impose peace on them as Clinton found out. Everyone but Clinton knew Arafat really didn't want to
make peace. If he did, they would've taken the deal Barak
offered. It's up to both sides to reach a final peace solution. Maybe late in the 21st or sometime in the 22nd century that will happen. After all, it was the Israeli's
and Palastians themselves that held secret negotations in the early 90's to start the peace process. One day again they will both come to the table, though I think after much blood will be shed.

[Kefka]

First off I'd like to state that being a Muslim myself, its seems to me that you don't know much about Islam and Muslims. We worship God ALONE, not a human being (Muhammad, Jesus). He is in our belief one of the many Prophets/Messengers sent by God to guide mankind to the straight path, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ismael, Moses, Jeses, David, Solomon and Muhammad being the last of them (Peace be upon them all). Any how not not to make this a theological debate. I just wanted you and everyone to get that clear. Secondly in response to the Israely retaliation being justified ... I'm only going to state this one fact. Thanks for your time and patience.

"At least 441 Palestinians, 13 Israeli Arabs and 87 Israelis have been killed since a Palestinian uprising against Israeli rule began last September after peace talks deadlocked." (ABCNews).

[Blade]

This space intentionaly left blank

[ by Blade on May 20, 2001.]

[indyskinsfan]

I was no way intentionally stereotyping "Muslims", I WAS making it clear where I STOOD. I know the FACTS in the Holy Bible and not what some man "done run in here". My family has had it's start in three continents, with the origins of each not knowing that in this day and age, they would combine together to give an account of something so clear.

One key area I will ALWAYS challenge in Islam, is when it actually started and here is what I gather from attending those meetings, they are "revolutionarily driven", which means "movement" . As the movement takes place they accumulate different splinters. As the splinters take root, they become "creative" in how they are going to be heard. Instead of what we see as peaceful movements in the areas for the people to grow, these splinter groups, whatever name you want to call them, I will not dignify them, add in personal wants and become outrageous in their behavior and representation. They have confused those who I see as Orthodox Muslims with their brand of Islam. The striking thing about this, though, is that as much as you say I stereotpye you, there is constantly this call "get the Americans" from all of the groups who practice Islam? Why is this. If your business is with your God, what are you doing in relation to it. I suppose the people at this board
are practicing their faith. Yet, there are more than places of evidence of what is still the undercurrent to make those dumb moves. So if the shoe fits, wear it.

I have yet to go get "Whitey" for what happended centuries ago or even last week! I don't feel that what happened by a white person, though they trade with Africa, Japan, Israel or Europe that it's their fault also. I don't blame an entire people or nation, for what you may do or what someone else has or had done. That would mean the Klan runs all of Europe and this I know, they DON'T. So say all the "buzz" words you want", like "Fundamentalist, etc. just to confuse and make others blind to the light of hope and love. I do not feel comfortable saying it, but it is not brainless. Why attack a nation that has not called for a movement against you and yet LET'S YOU WORSHIP IN HER. Where your country won't let others practice theirs.

You know the funny thing is, you have immediately focused on the areas that attempt to snare a person that has no belief in your practice. It is a spider's web (I know you know what I mean) and I refuse to run from you, or caught in it's snare.

I am not stereotyping Islam or Muslims, I am telling you what I SEE with my own eyes.

You, by the way have more than one religion or faith, because the Living God of Christ allows you the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. You are not FORCED TO LIVE LIKE HE TELLs YOU TO, WHETHER YOU ARE POOR OR RICH, FREE OR BOND, BECAUSE ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, YOU WILL BE JUDEGED EACH ACCORDING TO HIMSELF. How could he be a God of love and mercy and yet all knowing, if he FORCED you to pick. When directs us, it doesn't involve to incite TO CONSTANTLY INFLICT to FORCE TO GATHER. That is not the revolution Christ taught nor is it the way of God. It is clear that the deception is ready to move on the believers of Christ and are gathering their forces. I will not be moved! I will seek mercy from the Living God and will seek the help of him through my Holy Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

On that day, I will love you as I feel compelled to do now, as a brother or sister. I do this not because it is written that I should, but because I CHOSE TO. God have mercy on us all and I will seek my refuge in Christ Jesus.

I am done here and now I say peace to you always.

When we are at his throne for his judgement, I ask the Lord Jesus Christ to allow me to be aware of your mercy and as suredly, my own. On that day, all memory of this encounter will be wiped clean as your robe, I pray.

[Rdskns2000]

I didn't comprehend all that babble and really don't care.


You aren't a Muslim and will never understand all the theology of Islam. Just lime I'm a Muslim and won't understand al the theology of Christianity or Judiaism.


Islam is split into two main factions and yes they are extreme elements that think they are doing things in the name of God. Well they aren't and they will burn in hell.
Nation of Islam isn't Islam though they did takes some things from Islam; it isn't Islam in the way it is praticed.

If Christianity is so unified; why is there two major factions: Protestants and Catholicism? Why do some protests feel Catholics aren't Christians and vice versa?


Wasn't it a Christian: Adolf Hitler who ordered the slaughter of millions of Jews?


Also, why do Christians depict Jesus as a blue-eyed European looking person? He wasn't. Simple fact of where he was born. Bethleham is in the middle east; so Jesus is Middle Eastern looking: whether that's Arab or Israeli looking, who knows. Thing is, if he was born in that area, he would have a middle eastern look to him not what he is depicted as. Some say he is even black, which might even be true. IF Jesus returns in your lifetime and he's not looking as depicted; what will you do?


You can half your beliefs and I'll have mine. That's what great about America. It's a unique country and no other country in the world is like it. Christian can be oppressed somewhere, muslims can be opressed somewhere, or jews can be oppressed somewhere.


So my final though on this: You have your religion and beliefs and I have my religion and beliefs. Let it be. I don't care for yours and you don't care for mine.

Back to Redskins football

[Henry]

Lord help us all, the Jew is jumping into the discussion.

I won't write a twenty paragraph essy here, but this is my take as a Jewish American:

Kefka, the simple fact that one side has suffered more casualties doesn't make them the good guys. The Palistinians have rocks. If they had better weapons they'd use them. Moreover, the Palastinians started this most recent rash of violence. To be fair, what started out as a protest against a specific incident has now escalated by the Israelis and the Palistinian leadership into an all-out territorial dispute.

All that said, the Israeli settlers shouldn't be there. Israel is historically insensitive to the fact that land they now call home was forcibly ripped from it's previous owners, and this is no exception.

So who's right? Nobody. Neither side is willing to compromise (although the Israelis made some initial attempts which are now off the table) and I see no end to this. The only way I see this ending any time soon is if the US intervenes. The Bush administration seems to be content with wagging its finger from across the ocean thus far. We'll see ...

Indy, I love your posts, but you took this thread in a really bad direction. Every religion has their share of radicals who use their faith as an excuse to promote violence. And from my point of view Christianity is certainly no exception.

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Hail to the Redskins!

[indyskinsfan]

Henry, again I was never implying that ALL people who say they are Christians, in fact are, ditto for those that say they are Muslim and practice Islam.

You are right and others in seeing that "splinters" from all things believed dilute true intentions, which is what my point should have stayed away from, since this was about recent developments, but nevertheless, no more for me here as a Skins fan. Please tell Mick to stop bringing those kind of posts in the football area and put them here more often too. I am glad saw a need to intervene. Maybe soon enough we will all have our intervention and can ask our Creator all the "whys" we want to.

The mention of who believes in what is my attempt to get people to see exactly that, that it's "what you believe in doing to assist your understanding of being on this earth. I still don't agree with everything and already know all of us carry those same rights and privileges. I am not lost on what your "immediate" person can do or a groups when they say one thing and do another.

RDSKNS2000 you make good points and bad ones too. The one about Jesus complexion is not even a concern with the true followers of his teachings. "We walk by faith, not by sight".

I have actually had my "real" experience here and am glad to have had a chance to share it with everyone on this board.
It wasn't always "my" practice to do what I say or as it is said, "practice what I preach", but from the 20th on, that will change now. I am glad to have been a member here, but something in our conversations has led me to believe, that there is more important things for me to do and now, I say it formerly here. Good bye. Blade you turn the lights out on indyskinsfan. I will email you guys too. My fiance' is now going to have exclusive use of this for a few months and we will be moving before our marriage, after that, so no need for me to keep coming here late, missing sleep and work details to post. I will just come back as another poster this fall. Thanks.

(formerly indyskinsfan)
Kurt

[ by indyskinsfan on May 21, 2001.]

[joe]

This thread just shows the dangers of ignorance. I have seen much of it here. Ignorance of Islam, Ignorance of Christianity, Ignorance of the origins of the State of Israel. And much like the real middle east, we have had our own little war. It is amazing to me.

The factors that prevent true peace in the Middle East are almost too numerous to document. From the strategic location of the land as the crossroads to the three continents of Asia, Europe and Africa to the wealth of fossil fuels under the sand. From religious animosity to the fact that many religions are united by their desire to posess the holy places of Jerusalem. From the rights of the palistinians displaced by the Jews who were themselves migrating from a holocost and who fought past British intervention to claim an ancient homeland. I could go on, but I think that you get the picture. I do not see a solution in my lifetime, or in that of my daughter's. In fact, some would read the book of revalations to say that there will never be peace in the middle east, but that from there will come the seeds of the apocolypse.

While I would love to discuss this topic, it cannot be done without an open mind and I have seen little evidence of that so far in this thread.

Nice move, Blade, to put it here in the Bleachers.

[Yusuf06]

Came a bit late to the party but if anyone is still here....

First of all Indy, from what I could follow of your original diatribe, it seems that you have little or no knowlege of Islam. You gave that fact away with the following: "Some god they have huh (just a man with a turban)." Anyone who has ever read ANYTHING at all about Islam or even known anyone who even remotely professes to be Muslim would know that the first and biggest article of faith of Islam is that there is one and only one God (yes, the same one that you and the Jews worship). We have no doctrine of the trinity or anything that would approximate it. As one of the posters mentioned earlier, that isn't a problem. Unto you is your way and unto me mine. That is one of the most beautiful things about the faith is that there is no compulsion in it. We won't discuss how some of the idiotic Arab governments have ignored that admonition.

Anyway, religion aside, someone else pointed out (and correctly so) that religion is merely an aside to the real issue of politics in the whole thing. I mean the Palestinians are mostly Muslim but many are Christian and hate the Israelis just as much and are equally as hated by the Isrealis.

I usually chose to make my point by creating an imaginary scenario so that it hits a little closer to home for us Americans.

Suppose an imaginary third country arbitrarily decided that the Native Americans had really gotten a raw deal out of life and needed to be helped. Over our strenous objections, they unilaterally decided that all lands west of the Mississippi river would immediately be given over to the various tribes of Native America. Would all the people and businesses that owned land west of the Miss. river all of a sudden take kindly to being made second class citizens in the land of their and their parents/grandparents birth quietly ? Would the US govt. say "OK, thanks for leaving us the eastern seabord. Have a nice day" How would Mexico and Canada look at all of a sudden having a potentially hostile and destabilizing force on their doorsteps?

You and I both know that the result would, just like in Palestine, be war. Long and senseless and most depressing of all deadly (as wars are inevitably).

A few other points though about the Israelis. Former Prime Minister Yitzak Shamir was like other former Israeli PMs a memeber of the Stern gang. They were a group of Jewish terrorists who in the years before Israel was formed carried out terrorist attacks on the Palestinians and the British alike. Of this period, Shamir was quoted in the Washington Post as saying that terrorism in the creation of the state of Israel was acceptable but at any other time or place for any other people it wouldn't be. Can you say double standard boys and girls.

Also, I challenge anyone anywhere to find anything at all in the Quran that says anything negative about Jesus (other than our belief that he was not the son of God...which after all is a matter of belief). However, check out the Jewish Talmud and see what revered Jewish scholars of old have to say about Jesus/Christians in particular and non Jews in general.

I've ranted on enough.

[Henry]

Post away Yusuf. I keep an eye on this thread just in case

I only wanted to note that the Talmud is simply Man's interpretation of the Torah. Most Jews, even orthodox, use it as merely a guideline. Heck, I don't even have a copy.

The bottom line is that any religion can be used as an excuse to rationalize violence and hatred, and this situation is no exception. For example, Yigal Amir assassinated Yitzhak Rabin in order "to halt the Mideast peace process," and used the Halacha, which is the Jewish legal code, to justify his actions. Go figure.

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TOUCHDOWN, Washington Redskins!

[redman]

As a related aside to the false use of religion to justify sometimes despicable politically-motivated acts, you should note the Third Commandment which reads, "You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain." Most people read this to mean that you should not say "God!" or otherwise use the Lord's name to curse, swear, be nasty, etc. But that seems a pretty trivial interpretation for something important enough to be made one of only ten Commandments, doesn't it?

In fact it is both trivial, and largely incorrect. This is a Commandment whose meaning has been lost in the translation, literally. I don't pretend to be a biblical scholar, but I understand that the original Aramaeic text literally translated reads, "Do not carry the Lord's name in vain." Obviously, "carry" can easily become "take" over the course of several different translations. But with "carry" as the operative word, the Commandment takes on a whole new meaning.

Not carrying the Lord's name in vain means that you should not hold yourself out to others as a follower of God and do bad things. In other words, if you are a priest or a Rabbi and you commit rape, it's actually worse because not only have you committed the evil act itself, but you have also defamed God's name as one of His followers. It's even worse if you try to justify evil acts by saying they are done in the name of God.

Now, going back to the original topic in this thread, it's for this reason that so-called religious terrorists of any stripe, be it the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, the Muslims and Jews in the Middle East, or any of the countless other countries or organizations that commit violence in the name of their belief in God are committing sins well-beyond the injuries that they inflict upon others. They are damaging the very credibility of their faith, and they are hurting the ability of those who watch them to believe in God. After all, why worship a God who endorses such acts?

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"Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

[ by redman on July 17, 2001.]

[Yusuf06]

Henry I think you should get a copy of the Talmud to peruse for yourself. I'm assuming that you're Jewish and I feel you have something of an obligation to know what the revered scholars of your faith feel about Christians and other non Jews as well as other topics.

Secondly, both of you made very good points about "walking the walk" where it concerns your religious convictions. However, I try to never judge the merits of any faith based on the actions of it's adherents. It often leads to some warped conclusions. I most certainly would not want people to look at say the Taliban as the embodiment of the principles of Islam. Likewise, I assume that many or most Jews wouldn't want the actions of the state of Israel to speak for Judaism. That's why I never forget the big difference between Zionists and Jews. The two are not synonymous.