Bible question.....

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by KINGBRICE_28
pokerpacker.....

So are you athiest or something.....It seems like you are attacking everyones posts just in a non-offensive way......

He's 15. What do you expect?

[Redsk58417]

Originally posted by skinsfan51


No, they do it that way to keep from misinterpreting the Bible and thus going into error.

Not you too? Its Faith based people! Example: If you knew a love one would die tommorrow, would you still "LOVE" them, and "HOPE" there was a way around death? All the while you by faith loved them and "BELIEVED" they loved you back. Its just that simple, but Jesus died for me (and you too), he loves us all "EVEN THOUGH" not all believe. Thank GOD for Grace.

[Redsk58417]

Originally posted by skinsfan51


He's 15. What do you expect?

If "15" is his real age then I excuse (forgive him) and won't bash him. Its unfortunate however that the youth of america can be so mis-guided about GOD. GOD and Christianity preaches Love and Peace. 15 year olds now a days practice "Hate" and bring guns to school. That is if they aren't too busy getting pregnant. All before they can legally vote, drink or drive And there is nerve to attack a "Loving" and forgiving GOD!

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by Redsk58417
If "15" is his real age then I excuse (forgive him) and won't bash him. Its unfortunate however that the youth of america can be so mis-guided about GOD. GOD and Christianity preaches Love and Peace. 15 year olds now a days practice "Hate" and bring guns to school. That is if they aren't too busy getting pregnant. All before they can legally vote, drink or drive And there is nerve to attack a "Loving" and forgiving GOD!

It's easy to generalize like that. I could tell you that Christians slaughtered Jews and Muslims during the crusades or tortured people during various inquisitions. But that isn't truly representative of the core beliefs of Christianity and I recognize that. The vast majority of 15-year-olds are not bringing guns to school or getting pregnant.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by dfitzo53


Yes, I have read the Bible through. I've also read excerpts from the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita and the works of Confucius. Don't assume that I make my statements blindly simply because they don't agree with yours. Although I don't dispute the historical accuracy of parts of the bible, I don't view it as any more valid in terms of its explanation of our creation or the nature of this life and the hypothetical next one than any of these other texts.

I'm not assuming that you have no understanding of these things. I was only asking a few questions. But your edit tells me that you've never really studied it in-depth, so hopefully you're still in the "willing to learn" stage (like we all should be). Be open minded. The Bible is an old book, and there have been millions of people comforted and aided by its words and message. Many of those people had some of the greatest minds the world has ever seen.

Many in this forum, and in this world, would have you think that those that believe the Bible are some fringe wacko group that lack the intelligence to know better. History shows that that is just not the case. Many of the greatest scientists, inventors, Presidents, etc. have been devout Christians. Let reason and common sense guide you and in the end you'll be fine.

Let me pose you a question. If God is perfect he should have no reason to change. There is, however, a fundamental change in his nature between the Old Testament and New Testament. In the OT there is no heaven. References to any afterlife at all are vague. God describes himself as a "stern and stiff-necked God." In the NT there are descriptions of heaven and God describes himself as "kind", "loving" and "forgiving". This is a massive shift. Why does God do this? What motivates this change?

These are good, honest questions, I think. I think they are asked, however, upon an incorrect understanding of the Bible; and the Old Testament in particular. What makes you think that Heaven didn't exist in the Old Testament? It's pretty well established that Heaven is where God dwells.

Some Questions:

1. Where did Satan appear before God in the book of Job? Job 1:6
2. What about these statements in the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, alone?
"Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth..." Genesis 14:9
"I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth..." Genesis 14:22
"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar?" Genesis 21:17
"And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time..." Genesis 22:15

I've only scratched the surface. There are a LOT of references to Heaven in the Old Testament. BTW, the transliterated word Shamayim from the Hebrew in those verses can mean "the abode of God." It's translated "heaven" almost 400 times in the Old Testament! Heaven is there for sure.

Where does God describe Himself as "stern and stiff-necked"? Will you quote the passage(s)? How about these Old Testament passages?

"Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed..." Exodus 15:13

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:6

(Note: The seat in the Tabernacle where God chose to dwell among His people was called "The MERCY Seat.")

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever." Ps. 23:6

"All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies."

"But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared." Ps 130:4

"But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath." Ps 78:38

"But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth." Ps. 86:15

I could go on and on and on. There are a lot of verses in the Old Testament about God's mercy, forgiveness and compassion. Yea, He's FULL of compassion. He's filled right up with it!! Where is this "stiff-necked" God?

The skeptic would have you think that the God of the Old Testament was a hateful, power hungry, tyrant. But upon closer inspection that argument doesn't hold water. "Persuasion differs from convictions," says A. T. Pierson. "Appeals to feeling often warp the judgment; the eloquence of a burning speech sways the will and sometimes swings it to the side of error and wrong." Be careful about what you hear. Examine it for yourself.

Hopefully, just these few example have shown you that your perception of God was incorrect. He doesn't change. He's "the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." -Hebrews 13:8

Also, it's interesting to note that at the time of the origins of Judaism, the Jews didn't believe their God was the only god. He wasn't any different than other regional gods such as Baal or Zeus. Only later did the notion of Him as the one and only god evolve.

That is interesting. Do you have a source for this claim, my friend? (And by source I mean an ancient document that pre-dates the Pentateuch, where we find the Bible saying that Jehovah God is One God.)

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." -Deuteronomy 6:4

Edit: I realized right after I wrote this post that I may have come off sounding like a know-it-all. I recognize that there are things I don't know about the Bible. I've read it through, I haven't studied it in-depth. I ask my questions not just to challenge you or prove you wrong, but to find out why you believe what you believe. To find out how you solve for yourself some of the problems I find inherent in certain perspectives.

Thanks. I hope you see my reply in the same light.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by Redsk58417


Not you too? Its Faith based people! Example: If you knew a love one would die tommorrow, would you still "LOVE" them, and "HOPE" there was a way around death? All the while you by faith loved them and "BELIEVED" they loved you back. Its just that simple, but Jesus died for me (and you too), he loves us all "EVEN THOUGH" not all believe. Thank GOD for Grace.

Huh? Maybe you misunderstood my reply to PokerPacker. He was saying that Christians believe every WORD of the Bible to simply protect their religion. At least that's how I read his comments. My reply was that Christians read every word and take the Bible literally so as to not fall into error, and to interpret it correctly.

It's not an issue of faith as much as it's an issue of biblical integrity and remaining true to the context of God's Holy Word.

[dfitzo53]

Originally posted by skinsfan51

Where does God describe Himself as "stern and stiff-necked"? Will you quote the passage(s)? How about these Old Testament passages?

When we studied this in school I believe it was in the story of the Golden Calf, at least in the translation we were using. Let me see if I can dig those up for you.

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by Redsk58417


Yes it was a "Physical event" but with more than anything? It being a SPIRITUAL event based on "FAITH." Whether you have no evidence or ton. Faith is the key component. Its obvious you have "ZERO" faith because you're calling for evidence in a faith based argument ......ooookkk!

enslavement is not a spiritual event, it is a repressive event.

[dfitzo53]

It looks like God called the Israelites stiff-necked. Apparently I remembered wrong. I still don't understand why rules such as keeping kosher would change after Jesus died for our sins though. Why would God then allow us to eat whichever animals we liked, for example?

[zoony]

Interesting that Isaac Newton was a devout Christian. Perhaps the greatest mind of the modern era. Fanatical even.

Also interesting that Stephen Hawking refers to God throughout his explanation of why we are here in his books A Brief History of Time and The Universe in a Nutshell

And although he famously skirted theological questions... when asked about QM theory, Albert Einstein replied "God does not play dice"

Three of the greatest minds in the history of science.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate...

[PokerPacker]

Originally posted by skinsfan51


Huh? Maybe you misunderstood my reply to PokerPacker. He was saying that Christians believe every WORD of the Bible to simply protect their religion. At least that's how I read his comments. My reply was that Christians read every word and take the Bible literally so as to not fall into error, and to interpret it correctly.

It's not an issue of faith as much as it's an issue of biblical integrity and remaining true to the context of God's Holy Word.

i was saying that they don't take it literally. if they took it literally, the whole world would be dead. according to God, gays deserve to be murdered- "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives; their blood is upon them" (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

ever get your fortune told? A man or a woman who is a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death; they shall be stoned to death, their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

howabout getting mad and telling your parents off? All who curse father or mother shall be put to death. Their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

any non-christian friends? Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, devoted to destruction. (Exodus 22:20 NAB)

while you're busy murdering for god, why don't you come over to my house too? They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their ancestors, with all their heart and all their soul; whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, shall be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

ever work on a sunday? Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall be put to death (Exodus 31:15 NLT)

it would be a murderous world if the bible were taken literally.

[PokerPacker]

where'd you all go? ...uh oh, i hope no one got any ideas from my last post...

[Coach Williams]

Originally posted by PokerPacker
where'd you all go? ...uh oh, i hope no one got any ideas from my last post...

....

btw....I didn't mean the athiest thing in a bad way....Generally when a kid your age speaks this way about God & the bible it isn't because of practice......

Either way I enjoy this thread because I wasn't allowed to attend church as a kid.........The bible is a confusing thing if that is your only source of information....

[Mr. Nostril]

Originally posted by dfitzo53


It's easy to generalize like that. I could tell you that Christians slaughtered Jews and Muslims during the crusades or tortured people during various inquisitions. But that isn't truly representative of the core beliefs of Christianity and I recognize that. The vast majority of 15-year-olds are not bringing guns to school or getting pregnant.

If I weren't dreadfully opposed to the use of emoticons. I would slam the beers together.

To PokerPacker - I don't think anyone got any "ideas" from your last post. I just think that a) it's late and most of us have to work in the morning. I live in California, so I'm three hours behind, that means I got the chance to read it. b)The debate has gone way passed the point of simple "the bible says this, ooh isn't that God cruel!" Granted we haven't resolved the issue, but really all your post did was restate the original issue that was mentioned on the very first post 6 pages ago. I'm sure eventually someone will respond to you, but I wouldn't expect it to happen, because people grow weary of repeating the same thing over and over.

[skinsfan51]

Originally posted by dfitzo53
It looks like God called the Israelites stiff-necked. Apparently I remembered wrong. I still don't understand why rules such as keeping kosher would change after Jesus died for our sins though. Why would God then allow us to eat whichever animals we liked, for example?

Well, keep in mind what the Old Testament is about: the history of the JEWISH people. The dietary laws in the Old Testament were designed for optimum health; especially since God created the body and knows what is best for it. The "unclean" animals were mostly scavenger animals. It makes for an interesting study.

There is nothing in the New Testament that states that food shouldn't be kosher any longer, and the allowance of certain kinds of meat was used as a sign that God was also accepting the Gentiles for salvation, as well as the Jews. Up to that time the Gentiles were considered "dogs." But Jesus died for them, too (thank God, or I'd be hell-bound).

This truth is demonstrated in Acts 10 when the Apostle Peter went to see the devout Gentile, Cornelius. God used unclean meat to teach him not to call something unclean (the Gentiles) that God calls clean (the Gentiles). That aspect is what changed and the focus is not really on the diet.

(Note: the Gentiles were never under the restrictions of the Old Testament dietary laws, and therefore, were not, and are not today, required to eat kosher food.)